HOWTO: Stall up your automatic

[Darryl@pcmtec]

What parameters to enable stall up of your Falcon with an automatic

Warning. These settings will make it VERY easy to break a standard tailshaft. If you are testing this out with a standard tailshaft, use medium brake and no handbrake. If you have the handbrake on with full brakes, you may end up needing a new tailshaft! Also, you will heat up the transmission torque converter very quickly doing this, don't do it repeatedly with a standard transmission and cooler.

The first set work on BA/BF/FG MK Is. You may need the auF15789 parameter to get your MK II stalling up. For example you will need this to stall up an FGX XR6 Sprint (HAER1). This will mean you will no longer need to stall up in second gear.

Spark and Fuel Cut parameters

Under “Torque Limit” you will need to set the torque requestor (source) ratios for the Auto transmission to 0. Torque Source 1 is Transmission truncation, Torque Source 7 is Transmission Shift. The numbers are in the range 0 to 1 with 0 being no reduction and 1 full reduction.

The two tables to set here are auF0261 and auF0262:

In this example setting torque source 7 to 0 is not a very good choice as it leads to firmer shifts (no reduction in torque on transmission gear change).

Electronic Throttle Parameters

Next the the two throttle cut tables will need to be changed. You will need to alter auF0264 (RPM Limit) and auF0265 (torque limit) under “Drive by Wire”.

auF15789 for MK IIs that don’t stall up (FGX XR6 Sprint and others).

Under "DriveTrain/Stall up Protection and Manual Launch Control" there is a switch to stop stall up. Search for auF15789:

Change the value from 1 to 0. 

[DanStraffa]

Is this only for ZF’s or BTR’s too?

(BTR 4 speed auto)

I have a BF MK2 Ute.

[Roland@pcmtec]

1 minute ago, DanStraffa said:

Is this only for ZF’s or BTR’s too?

(BTR 4 speed auto)

I have a BF MK2 Ute.

I believe they already stall up with no throttle limits? If not it will most likely be a different parameter in those. What are you seeing, throttle angle being pulled?

[DanStraffa]

I haven’t tried it yet was just curious, I can stall it up to 2,300 without touching anything but it’s not like an Manual FG launch control.

[Roland@pcmtec]

44 minutes ago, DanStraffa said:

I haven’t tried it yet was just curious, I can stall it up to 2,300 without touching anything but it’s not like an Manual FG launch control.

No automatic vehicles have launch control.

[BeerTurbo]

My Ba seems to only stall up to around 2k, while at a standstill and on the brake. 

It also wont break traction at the rears, i assume there is a torque limiting function coming into affect.

[Roland@pcmtec]

12 minutes ago, BeerTurbo said:

My Ba seems to only stall up to around 2k, while at a standstill and on the brake. 

It also wont break traction at the rears, i assume there is a torque limiting function coming into affect.

If you log the throttle and spark what occurs?

[Romulus]

On 2/12/2019 at 3:09 PM, BeerTurbo said:

My Ba seems to only stall up to around 2k, while at a standstill and on the brake. 

It also wont break traction at the rears, i assume there is a torque limiting function coming into affect.

Have you changed auF2259, Torque limits for individual gears?

Also, you need to set transmission torque truncation to 0 in both spark and torque ratio tables.

BTW, how much boost are you running?

[darcati]

Just asking for clarification on this? Do I set all settings in the 4 tables to "0" for a Mk1 FG or only Torque Source 7 "Transmission Shift Modulation"?

Or duplicate the settings as per the snapshots?

[darcati]

Not sure if I've asked a stupid question or no one is willing to divulge.........

[Puffwagon]

1 hour ago, darcati said:

Not sure if I've asked a stupid question or no one is willing to divulge.........

Copy the tables as per the first post but keep in mind this statement below.

On 1/12/2018 at 2:27 PM, Darryl@pcmtec said:

In this example setting torque source 7 to 0 is not a very good choice as it leads to firmer shifts (no reduction in torque on transmission gear change).

Either don't change it or only change it a little bit.

 

Try tagging people with the @ symbol and then clicking/highlighting their name like this, @darcati, if you want them to be notified of your post.

[darcati]

Cheers Puffwagon, appreciate you clearing it up. Risk is duly noted!!

[Puffwagon]

No worries.

I don't think it was a stupid question or people not wanting to share. The guys are very busy with their jobs, families and developing pcmtec, plus it's only the first day back after a long weekend.

Maybe someone can comment further about how much the transmission shift torque reduction should be changed, for a stock drive train fg mk1.

[finnigan001]

13 hours ago, Puffwagon said:

Maybe someone can comment further about how much the transmission shift torque reduction should be changed, for a stock drive train fg mk1.

Hi there, Let me save you some tail chasing and months of pulling your hair out.

Along time ago i copied the above tables to have a play with stalling up and forgot about them.   All was working as expected and was pleased with results etc.  Fast forward a couple of months and i'm having weird issues with overboost on gear changes (see link below).  Turns out setting all other torque requestors to 0 will cause the car to rely on spark requestors to do all the torque reduction.  This in turn will cause a large spark cut in to the -ve's and higher cylinder pressures and then overboost.

So atm i have mine set as follows, but still have a lot of testing to do.

auf0262 (spark requestors):  1 = 0.5   4 = 0.3

auf0261 (other requestors):  1 = 0.7   4 = 0.7

As you can see, not big changes.  But this allows the car to not overboost on gear changes and be on the borderline of spinning the wheels.  However for stalling up the transmission this may still induce a fuel cut after a certain amount of time stalled.  Yet to test.

I guess the point is that there are lots of things that effect each other with in the tune and there are trade offs between features to make.  Just be aware these simple changes might cause side affects or they might not.  Slow and steady, lots of testing and flashing and you'll find what works for your car and setup.

 

[darcati]

Nice to know finnigan001, appreciate the feedback.

Edited March 14, 2019 by darcati

[Roland@pcmtec]

On 3/13/2019 at 12:49 PM, finnigan001 said:

Slow and steady, lots of testing and flashing and you'll find what works for your car and setup.

Quoted for emphasis. You have to test and datalog each change individually, otherwise you are guessing.

[luke111]

On my BF turbo BTR 4 speed, I am seeing ETC clipped to 75 deg in 1st gear on launch. I have a 3200 converter.

I don't seem to get it on the street but If I have drag radials on at the strip and stall it up anything above 2300rpm it does it.

I'm seeing Trans trunc torque source from about 2850-4000rpm everytime.

Anyone else seen this before with BTR?

I can't find the setting to change it in HPTuners. Its possible they don't have it in the strategy I'm using. (HACCKA2) I've tried making changes similar to what you have listed above for the ZF6 but it doesn't seem to work. I've been chasing this issue for over 1 yr now.

[luke111]

[Romulus]

auF0261 & auF0262, make sure torque truncation is set to 0.

auF1170 must be set higher than maximum stall speed.

[luke111]

27 minutes ago, Romulus said:

auF0261 & auF0262, make sure torque truncation is set to 0.

auF1170 must be set higher than maximum stall speed.

Ok i will try that. Ive got spark source set at 1.0

I thought that disabled it.

I have the inferred movement at 3500.

Ive run 11.1, i reckon thus car has a 10 in it if i can fix this etc problem.

[BeerTurbo]

Ok have spent to much time looking up silly things on the internet today, but ive come here to ask the question.

Is there a possibility of a BOV interup signal, say solaniod on the BOV..so when we are stalling the auto the bov is venting boost enabling higher rpm/spool on the stall?

One could also you it can be used like a programmable over-boost valve to where the bov can open when you exceed a boost level...by cuting of the feed to the bov it will open.

[Puffwagon]

1 hour ago, BeerTurbo said:

when we are stalling the auto the bov is venting boost enabling higher rpm/spool on the stall?

That wouldn't work as you'd lose power from venting the compressed air. You'd be trying to stall up the na version of your motor instead of the turbo version.

 

Take a look here mate http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&title=The-AllElectronic-BlowOff-Valve&A=2188

[BeerTurbo]

13 hours ago, Puffwagon said:

That wouldn't work as you'd lose power from venting the compressed air. You'd be trying to stall up the na version of your motor instead of the turbo version.

 

Take a look here mate http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&title=The-AllElectronic-BlowOff-Valve&A=2188

if the air leak was done correctly surely you could find a balance between feeding the engine boost vs the turbine spin speed being higher and ready to force more boost down the engine throat when you remove it.

 

 

i actually only really got onto looking because of my present over-boost situation, while waiting for my ported exhaust housing to arrive.

Nispro have the overboost valve to dump charge air at a certain setpoint, GFB made or used to make a turbo overboost valve that would dump vacuum to the BOV if a certain boost pressure was reached, aka dumping charge air too.

got me thinking about using the ecu to control a mac valve on the bov to do the same thing.

i have a spare valve and hobs boost switch, i might play with the idea.

 

[Roland@pcmtec]

14 hours ago, BeerTurbo said:

Ok have spent to much time looking up silly things on the internet today, but ive come here to ask the question.

Is there a possibility of a BOV interup signal, say solaniod on the BOV..so when we are stalling the auto the bov is venting boost enabling higher rpm/spool on the stall?

One could also you it can be used like a programmable over-boost valve to where the bov can open when you exceed a boost level...by cuting of the feed to the bov it will open.

People control boost this way in race/rally cars, venting the air back to the intake to keep turbo rpm high and just jamming the wastegate shut. You can overspeed the turbo doing this though and it will also make the turbo run less efficiently but you will get much better response.

At low rpm this isn't going to help you get more boost as it would only assist once you got above your boost threshold.

The way to do it is to hook up a boost controller to a wastegate and replace the bov with a wastegate.

[BeerTurbo]

On 6/11/2019 at 8:11 AM, Roland@pcmtec said:

People control boost this way in race/rally cars, venting the air back to the intake to keep turbo rpm high and just jamming the wastegate shut. You can overspeed the turbo doing this though and it will also make the turbo run less efficiently but you will get much better response.

At low rpm this isn't going to help you get more boost as it would only assist once you got above your boost threshold.

The way to do it is to hook up a boost controller to a wastegate and replace the bov with a wastegate.

see they have purely electronic control bovs now through turbo-smart. would it be something on the hitlist for you guys to program in, trigger a bov event of auto gearshift?

[Roland@pcmtec]

22 minutes ago, BeerTurbo said:

see they have purely electronic control bovs now through turbo-smart. would it be something on the hitlist for you guys to program in, trigger a bov event of auto gearshift?

I'm not sure why you would want to do this? That is one of the main benefits of an auto, no boost lost on gear shift.

[BDAZLA]

I just changed these parametres but noticed i didnt have auF15789 for MK IIs even though I have a FG MK II F6. is this a difference between pro and workshop?  I also noticed DSC is in there that I want to turn off.

[Roland@pcmtec]

Yes it is a workshop only parameter. This parameter was not available in other products so it was a selling feature when we first launched to get workshops on board.

[BDAZLA]

Thanks Rolland 🙂

[BeerTurbo]

On 1/12/2018 at 11:57 AM, Darryl@pcmtec said:

 

Under “Torque Limit” you will need to set the torque requestor (source) ratios for the Auto transmission to 0. Torque Source 1 is Transmission truncation, Torque Source 7 is Transmission Shift. The numbers are in the range 0 to 1 with 0 being no reduction and 1 full reduction.

 

over here in flat shifting post, Rolland explains the torque requesting tables the other way.

"In the example of rev limit it will compare the 0.6 to the value in auF0262 (which is 0.8) The PCM will then take the maximum of the two numbers and only provide 0.8 torque reduction via spark (eg it will limit spark retard to only a 20% reduction whilst in engine speed limiting)."

 

so if we are trying to limit the spark cut on gearchange, are we changing auF0262 7 from 0.5 to a higher number, or lower number.

 

 

 

 

[Roland@pcmtec]

You say spark cut but there is no spark cut, do you mean fuel cut? or do you mean spark retard?

Also Darryl isn't wrong. It depends what kind of torque reduction you are talking about. He is talking about throttle reduction, you are talking about spark retard or maybe fuel cut?

Depending on the table, by increasing a number you reduce one type of reduction and increase the other type. So there is not simple "reduce the number to reduce the torque reduction". You have to decide what type of torque reduction you want, then you tune the numbers to suit.

Sometimes it is easier for you to experiment with these settings yourself. Eg try raising the number drastically and log throttle and spark. Datalog if the throttle shuts or the spark is retarded. Then try reducing the number drastically and see what happens.

[Puffwagon]

I wouldn't change them drastically as they make a big difference with a small change eg: 0.1 of a change can be too much. This has been my experience.

[Roland@pcmtec]

The whole point of making a drastic change is so you know which way it works and the outcome is obvious. You don't leave it like that. 

[Puffwagon]

9 hours ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

You don't leave it like that

That is correct.

I'll put it differently...0.1 is a big change for these parameters. The whole scale is only 0 to 1.

I should have made that clear in my other post.

[BeerTurbo]

On 12/10/2020 at 3:57 PM, Roland@pcmtec said:

You say spark cut but there is no spark cut, do you mean fuel cut? or do you mean spark retard?

Also Darryl isn't wrong. It depends what kind of torque reduction you are talking about. He is talking about throttle reduction, you are talking about spark retard or maybe fuel cut?

Depending on the table, by increasing a number you reduce one type of reduction and increase the other type. So there is not simple "reduce the number to reduce the torque reduction". You have to decide what type of torque reduction you want, then you tune the numbers to suit.

Sometimes it is easier for you to experiment with these settings yourself. Eg try raising the number drastically and log throttle and spark. Datalog if the throttle shuts or the spark is retarded. Then try reducing the number drastically and see what happens.

spark retard yes.

 

i was trying to see if i could reduce spark retard on gearshift to see if it helped the boost stay stable during gearshift.

running gate and 0 wastage dc i dont see a spike but when i envove boost control i allways manage to get 1.5/2psi over commanded during gearshift event, but run commanded boost otherwise.

 

interesting turbo terry has for trans shift modulation a 0 in other cuts and 0.5 in spark. the fg one i looked at says 0.7 in other and 0.5 in spark. i tried it in mine and driving normally you couldn't notice anything. using manual shift under power definitely evoked the throttle body as the boost would drop - on a side not it did not like that at all. 

 

just having fun playing around.

 

 

[BeerTurbo]

less spark retard, higher number. more fuel/throttle cuts higher number.

i think i needed to get my head around that one first. i have been thinking they act the same way.

[BeerTurbo]

allright, finally data lodged. on the brake stalling up, torque source will quickly change from driver demand to trans tourque trunk.

now changing spark to 0 and other requests to 1 as well as disabling the ETC...car will stall-up, but starts pushing through the brake as soon as it starts building boost 1-2psi. with log we can see its requesting torque cut but nothing is occuring.

this is for a turbo territory, auf1338 tq reduction set to stock of 1 (other cuts only)...no good. changed to 3 so it will use spark cut then other cuts.

same situation, on the brake stalling up...as tq reduction cuts in pretty quickly. at .8 tourque spark was around 10, at .46 it was -6.  you see spark retards down to a max of around -6.7 deg and i can get higher in the rev range and build much more boost (saw around 7psi)

in the future ill play with auF0263 (spark retard for tq request) and see if we can get it to clip to the max of -15 deg and add more fuel in the hole.

 

i know you can do this in the cruise control activated stuff, but for now im having fun playing without that. cheers.

 

 

[Puffwagon]

9 hours ago, BeerTurbo said:

but starts pushing through the brake as soon as it starts building boost 1-2psi

Pull the handbrake. I've held all the boost in first gear with the brake pedal smashed into the floor and the handbrake on.

[Turboidiot]

Can auF15789 be added to HACHHN3?

[BeerTurbo]

On 12/17/2020 at 9:01 AM, BeerTurbo said:

allright, finally data lodged. on the brake stalling up, torque source will quickly change from driver demand to trans tourque trunk.

now changing spark to 0 and other requests to 1 as well as disabling the ETC...car will stall-up, but starts pushing through the brake as soon as it starts building boost 1-2psi. with log we can see its requesting torque cut but nothing is occuring.

this is for a turbo territory, auf1338 tq reduction set to stock of 1 (other cuts only)...no good. changed to 3 so it will use spark cut then other cuts.

same situation, on the brake stalling up...as tq reduction cuts in pretty quickly. at .8 tourque spark was around 10, at .46 it was -6.  you see spark retards down to a max of around -6.7 deg and i can get higher in the rev range and build much more boost (saw around 7psi)

in the future ill play with auF0263 (spark retard for tq request) and see if we can get it to clip to the max of -15 deg and add more fuel in the hole.

 

i know you can do this in the cruise control activated stuff, but for now im having fun playing without that. cheers.

 

 

so its been a while. i was playing with this again today and i have a question. i have my min spark set to -20 and in my spark retards for testing it was set to pull 80 at any amount of tq reduction request. on the brake, get tq reduction request, but it only ever goes to around -12 . i figured with such drastic spark retard table it should instantly hit spark min clip. any thoughts?

 

 

[Puffwagon]

Maybe it's load dependant. More load = more reduction

Try it in second gear so it can build more boost before it pushes through the brake. Also get under there and adjust ya handbrake 😜

[BeerTurbo]

12 minutes ago, Puffwagon said:

Maybe it's load dependant. More load = more reduction

Try it in second gear so it can build more boost before it pushes through the brake. Also get under there and adjust ya handbrake 😜

i actually put it on the list for tomorrow. so now its adjust handbrake and drink beer. big list.

i also just reading the old bf launch control thread and realized i never touched auF2233 , so ill try that tomorrow too.

[Roland@pcmtec]

15 hours ago, BeerTurbo said:

i actually put it on the list for tomorrow. so now its adjust handbrake and drink beer. big list.

i also just reading the old bf launch control thread and realized i never touched auF2233 , so ill try that tomorrow too.

auF2233 will induce more spark retard, however it will induce it for ALL torque reductions, this is not likely desirable for a ZF as all your shifts will be truncated with more spark.

If you've bought our training guide its covered in there. Look at these tables here. ZF00505. This is the maximum torque whilst in gear.

Log these and you'll see what torque you are making and what the torque delta is, from there you'll be able to figure out the torque ratio (eg torque produced, vs max requested) and that will tell you why you are getting -15 spark.

 

I can also recommend using the multi tune and simply putting -30 deg in the launch tune with a spark hole where your converter locks up, that works great for anti lag off the line. Check out the video here and have a read of this thread.