Jump to content

Flex Fuel/Dual Map Discussion


Recommended Posts

Flex Fuel is now available for your Falcon using the stock PCM coupled with our custom operating system.

The flex fuel custom OS utilises the second O2 sensor on BF/FG as the flex fuel sensor input. This will require a converter (zeitronix or other) to convert the standard flex fuel PWM signal into a 0-5v signal.

Pirotta Performance has developed a plug in loom for the O2 sensor for this purpose.

The BA Falcon uses the boost sensor input.

The operating system works by duplicating the main boost, spark, fuel and cranking tables. The OS then blends between the standard map (98) and the new map (e85) depending on the alcohol %.

Each table has its own configurable blend ratio so you can blend in a non linear fashion if required.

Eg you can run 100% of the e85 boost map at e70 but still keep a linear blend for spark.

The custom operating system costs 4 credits to upgrade an existing license ($100) or 7 credits to license from scratch ($350) which makes it MUCH cheaper than any of the after market solutions available.

Here are some screenshots of the new tables that are available by default. The wizard then allows you to pick and choose extra tables to be blended.

image.png.ecedb3bc19bb1235844f359f8c2f862d.png

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

First round of testing complete by Stathi at IMS today with great results. We have the second o2 sensor reading 0-5v and all maps blending.

Finally we just need a few more tweaks and to implement the variable stoich calculation and we are ready! Hopefully have everything read for public release next week if all goes well.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

Springy performance has posted online about the plug and play flex fuel kit, does that mean you guys aren't to far away from releasing? I'm booked in for some work done and a tune in a couple weeks so hoping if this is available I'll be able to get flex tune done at same time 

Link to post
Share on other sites

We are very close yes. Just finalising the update to the Editor software to facilitate the custom OS, the actual operating system itself is complete pending final testing.

Danny @ Springy has tested his kit with the Custom OS successfully interpolating between various E85 blends already. I don't see any reason why you won't be able to get a full flex tune in the coming weeks.

Link to post
Share on other sites

This is now available! Includes extended resolution spark maps, flex maps and boost by gear. 

Springy Performance are offering a flex fuel plug and play kit including a flex sensor, fuel fittings, zeitronix or blueflex converter, plug and play O2 sensor loom and an optional ethanol % gauge. 

Pricing is currently $1090

Alternatively you can build your own however to cut down on support costs we are only providing support if you use the flex kit as this is a proven and tested product. 

If you wish to use dual maps, rotary dial for variable boost etc you can simply switch 5v on pin a37 (rear O2 sensor input) to trigger it. 

To get access to the new OS send us your tune and we will convert it to the new OS. This will be automated in the next version of the editor. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

To get access to the new OS send us your tune and we will convert it to the new OS. This will be automated in the next version of the editor. 

 

On 8/21/2018 at 5:20 PM, Roland@pcmtec said:

PCMTEC Editor Version 0.72 has now been released as of 21/8/18

Custom operating systems cost 5 credits (4 to edit, 1 to flash). If you have already licensed the vehicle you will be offered an upgrade license for only 2 credits, this is all automatically determined when you press "License Vehicle".

 

I emailed my licensed file through a little while back so I could have a look at the boost by gear and map swap over etc and a custom os was emailed back, without flex fuel support. I am keen to have the flex fuel option however. I wonder if you still have my original file?

Could you please clarify what is "automated in the next version of the editor"? I'm just a little confused about the automatic update and the 2 credit update.

At any rate I will go ahead with the flex option so will proceed based upon your advice. Thanks mate.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Puffwagon. Darryl is looking at yours on monday.

So with version > 0.72 if you license say HA*** for 3 credits, then we provide you with a PCM** custom os (we use PCM** prefix for the Custom OS) it will only cost you 2 credits to license (total of 5). If you have never previously licensed the car and go to license the custom OS it will cost 5 credits.

The editor automatically determines whether to charge 5 or 2 credits based on your prior licenses.

I will be writing up a Custom OS HOWTO shortly that describes all the new maps and how to set them up. This will continue to change over time as we make it more and more dynamic within the editor. Eg in the future you won't have to send us a file, it will just be a toggle in the editor and you will be able to toggle which maps you'd like to interpolate opposed to all of them being added.

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, brettus said:

Can you tell me if the TT (Turbo Territory) has the extra O2 sensor built into the ECU and wiring harness even though it's not attached or used? I would like the E85 option even with using a water/meth setup. 

Vehicle is a 2008 F6X....

Yes I see no reason why not. It is only the BAs that don't appear to have the sensor available on the PCM input.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 1 month later...

I posted this on another forum but i thought it'd be worth posting here too. 

 

My thoughts are regarding fuel economy, longevity of hardware, the use of very small amounts of e85 to change from low to high boost as well as a possible idea for staged fuel pumps. I'll just quote it below. 

 

"Run a 12psi 98 tune that blends into a 22psi e85 tune. Run the boost up high earlier in the blend so even at 5% ethanol it goes to 18psi but you can leave the timing out of it until the ethanol content is higher. 

 

That'll mean you'd have a fairly ordinary car with straight 98 but with even a small amount of e85 it'd come alive. 

 

It'll keep your car alive for longer too cos it'll last for ages at lower boost and even a stock motor should stay alive for a bit of high boost work.

 

You'd definitely save some money running 12psi on 98 over 22psi on e85.

 

Also a random idea @rollex how about a secondary fuel pump output that is activated by various tunable conditions and/or parameters such as map and ethanol content."

 

Anyhow i can't wait to try some of this out for myself. I just gotta pull my finger out and fix my car...

Edited by Puffwagon
Last paragraph
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

If we get enough demand we will do a CAN based IO extender for the PCM. You could do a lot with this. Right now we've picked off all the low hanging fruit so we will see how many people start asking for other features.

Right now focus is on getting the custom OS stuff into the editor and getting the datalogger released.

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/9/2018 at 8:41 PM, Puffwagon said:

I posted this on another forum but i thought it'd be worth posting here too. 

 

My thoughts are regarding fuel economy, longevity of hardware, the use of very small amounts of e85 to change from low to high boost as well as a possible idea for staged fuel pumps. I'll just quote it below. 

 

"Run a 12psi 98 tune that blends into a 22psi e85 tune. Run the boost up high earlier in the blend so even at 5% ethanol it goes to 18psi but you can leave the timing out of it until the ethanol content is higher. 

 

That'll mean you'd have a fairly ordinary car with straight 98 but with even a small amount of e85 it'd come alive. 

 

It'll keep your car alive for longer too cos it'll last for ages at lower boost and even a stock motor should stay alive for a bit of high boost work.

 

You'd definitely save some money running 12psi on 98 over 22psi on e85.

 

Also a random idea @rollex how about a secondary fuel pump output that is activated by various tunable conditions and/or parameters such as map and ethanol content."

 

Anyhow i can't wait to try some of this out for myself. I just gotta pull my finger out and fix my car...

How would you keep the fuels  separate? if you mix in e85 froma  secionddary tank during boost, its going to go back to the main tank as part of the return system?

Are you perhaps thinking a second set of injectors and a separate e85 fuel system - activated on higher boost levels?

Or do what the Japs used to do back in the verry early 90's and install a 7th injector in the intake track to inject extra fuel? similar to a wet nos setup?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm talking about separate ideas in that post but to be clear I'm only referring to one fuel tank and 6 injectors. Of course it could be utilised in other ways with water/meth injection etc.

 

You don't need to keep the fuels separate. To raise boost but still run primarily 98, at the bowser you'd just add a few litres of e85 to your remaining 98 in the tank. As soon as the very low pre tuned e85 threshold has been reached, the boost would come up.

This is a way of juggling a low/high boost condition with just using fuel content whilst still keeping the economy of 98 octane. Straight 98=low boost, e5=high boost with appropriate but similar timing. Perhaps e10 would be more suited to compensate for the boost change and this is what the tuner would have to work out. There are more variables but this explains it enough I think.

 

If you were referring to having a secondary pump output then my reasoning is this; with normal street driving fuel demand is low and as such you don't need multiple electric pumps unnecessarily loading the electrical system and heating up the fuel from excessive circulation. You also don't need as much fuel pump for 98 octane vs e85.

If we had a secondary pump output then you could run a smaller pump while cruising or at lower power levels and when various conditions are met such as map, e85 content, road speed etc, you could have 2 or 3 or more pumps running. 

As the secondary output would activate a relay system, you could even incorporate a hobbs switch to further stage the pumps eg: 1 pump for 98, 2 pumps for e85 and the hobbs switch can activate the third pump at a preset map.

 

I hope this clears it up.

Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, Puffwagon said:

You don't need to keep the fuels separate. To raise boost but still run primarily 98, at the bowser you'd just add a few litres of e85 to your remaining 98 in the tank. As soon as the very low pre tuned e85 threshold has been reached, the boost would come up.

This is a way of juggling a low/high boost condition with just using fuel content whilst still keeping the economy of 98 octane. Straight 98=low boost, e5=high boost with appropriate but similar timing. Perhaps e10 would be more suited to compensate for the boost change and this is what the tuner would have to work out. There are more variables but this explains it enough I think.

 

ahhh so your talking more about having boost levels managed by the ethanol content in the tank, sounds lot less complicated than the duel fuels and injecting e85 above low boost i thought you were trying for.

all good.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

That's right. You can have a high low boost setting with just a touch of e85 added to the tank.

Perhaps integrating a resistor and switch/s setup with the ethanol content sensor signal/wiring, you may be able to achieve the same thing without using the actual e85 content for feeback, while still running a full flex tune.

There are so many variables to achieve slightly different outcomes that there isn't a one size fits all approach to it.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Puffwagon said:

That's right. You can have a high low boost setting with just a touch of e85 added to the tank.

Perhaps integrating a resistor and switch/s setup with the ethanol content sensor signal/wiring, you may be able to achieve the same thing without using the actual e85 content for feeback, while still running a full flex tune.

There are so many variables to achieve slightly different outcomes that there isn't a one size fits all approach to it.

im sure if the PCMTECH guys can do the custom OS thing to use the eth content sensor the blend the boost control map in the same way it does the timing map? - amusing your using the standard computer to do the boost control.

Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, BeerTurbo said:

im sure if the PCMTECH guys can do the custom OS thing to use the eth content sensor to blend the boost control map in the same way it does the timing map? - amusing your using the standard computer to do the boost control.

Ok I think I've got it right?! See the bold and crossed out parts, if that makes it correct?

 

I have the workshop version with the custom os and have had time to look through it, so you're right there, PCMTEC can blend both maps and plenty more.

Better yet you can blend maps in a non linear manner which ties in with my previous statements. It shows how, with some creative tuning, you can have multiple boost settings within a single tune without having to install additional hardware.

 

Care to clarify what is amusing about using PCMTEC aka the standard computer to control boost? While I may have missed something, I have yet to find a more comprehensive boost controller than the integrated one.

 

Anyhow that's all I could assume from that comment, correct me if I got something wrong.

Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, Puffwagon said:

Would you mind rewriting that with some better punctuation and sentence structure? It doesn't make any sense.

nope, i'm having trouble reading my own writing. 

i'm sure the guys at PCMTECH can blend boost maps based on ETH percentage, as they have shown this ability with the timing maps. 

My comment regarding boost - Assuming your running standard ECU to control boost - obviously with a standalone controller this will be harder to integrate. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Oops I ran out of time to edit. Here's the paste of the edit.

 

Care to clarify what is amusing about using PCMTEC aka the standard computer to control boost? While I may have missed something, I have yet to find a more comprehensive boost controller than the integrated one.

Ahh the missus just said you musta meant assuming, not amusing.

 

Anyhow that's all I could assume from that comment, correct me if I got something wrong.

 

Ok I think we're all straightened out now ?

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, BeerTurbo said:

i'm sure the guys at PCMTECH can blend boost maps based on ETH percentage,

 

Yeah they can mate and better yet is doesn't have to be linear so you can change timing and boost to suit how you want your car to run.

It's miles better than blending two files, it gives you heaps of control over it.

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

BeerTurbo there are 3 blend ramps.

One for fuel, one for spark and one for boost. These are 10 point lookups so they can do anything you want really, it can be linear, a curve or a complete step change (eg you've wired in a switch).

It is simply an analog input so you can wire in a potentiometer to have variable boost or any combination you want.

Link to post
Share on other sites

While your around @Roland@pcmtec, what do you think about the idea of wiring in a switch and a resistor in conjunction with the e85 hardware?

In theory you could switch between the ethanol content signal output (or input?) and a set voltage signal eg: 1 volt, so you can run high or low boost on 98 with stuff all e85 in the tank but let the sensor take car of the higher (than the low set point) ethanol content tune?

Any problems there anyone can see?

Link to post
Share on other sites

So wire in a voltage adder? I guess you could do split range e85 blend ramps then. 

Eg 0 to 0.7v is 0 to e85 low boost then 0.7v to 1.6v is 0 to e85 with high boost. 

The issue will be the switch over point if you are at dead on 0% ethanol on high boost it could toggle to the e85 low boost map. 

I think you could hack it together so it works though. Might be a bit of work to calibrate it but should be doable. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not an electrical guru but from what I've read you can use some types of resistors to drop voltage. This is what I was looking at. I figured that there would be a stable power supply somewhere to be tapped into.

The switch idea is having either the e85 sensor output or a fixed voltage sending a signal to the pcm but not both at the same time. You would want these voltages to be identical as much as possible at the chosen swap over point. You would also have to use the e85 content sensor signal to get proper fuelling with much more than 5% ethanol.

With the right fuel calibration you would be fine to run a 5% variance in fuel from 98ron to e5.

And yeah, you would need to get the tuning pretty spot on with such a small range being used.

 

I guess this is more of a self tuned and driven kind of thing as you'd have to know what's going on and how it all works.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/10/2018 at 3:28 PM, Roland@pcmtec said:

If we get enough demand we will do a CAN based IO extender for the PCM. You could do a lot with this. Right now we've picked off all the low hanging fruit so we will see how many people start asking for other features.

Right now focus is on getting the custom OS stuff into the editor and getting the datalogger released.

 

I was just browsing intake manifolds and it got me wondering...What are the chance of being able to run 12 injectors with the the other 6 being able to be staged? Perhaps the 2nd set could be batch fired if it can't be done sequentially. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Puffwagon said:

 

I was just browsing intake manifolds and it got me wondering...What are the chance of being able to run 12 injectors with the the other 6 being able to be staged? Perhaps the 2nd set could be batch fired if it can't be done sequentially. 

Anything is possible if there is a business case for developing it.

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

Anything is possible if there is a business case for developing it.

 

Everyone who uses a this may well choose pcmtec over haltech considering the race oriented features that pcmtec already has or could have.

 

I know you're focussed on the here and now but with a few more features and the capability to live tune, pcmtec will be the number one pick for falcon tuning, if it isn't heading that way already.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Puffwagon said:

I know you're focussed on the here and now but with a few more features and the capability to live tune, pcmtec will be the number one pick for falcon tuning, if it isn't heading that way already.

We've converted a large number of the big shops Australia wide now. The goal is to perfect the stuff we've already delivered or promised first. So for the rest of the year we will be putting all our energy into the Custom OS and Datalogging.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 11 months later...
10 hours ago, Turboidiot said:

Has this been verified & able to work for e85 flex tune? 

I6 BA we use the boost sensor for the flex kit. About 15+ BA vehicles done to date. Almost all tuners run the BA boost control in open loop but we substitute the MAP sensor value for boost control if it is still needed. 

V8 BA we have not had any requests for yet but if we do we will use the power steering pressure sensor. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Power steering support is not implemented yet, only the boost sensor so we recommend using a turbo PCM and using this input.

No one to date has done a Flex kit on an NA BA so I'm not sure if the NA PCM has the boost input available. Some of the gas BF/FG models do have have it so it may be the case for the BA as well. 

You really want to use the turbo PCM anyway as without the built in boost controller you miss out on great stuff like boost by speed/gear and boost by ethanol content.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...