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FG Mk2 XR6T - ZF Auto Flaring


Stelz87
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Hi, I'd like some friendly advice regarding my ZF please. It is currently flaring between gear changes after a tune was done. I was told the ZF was returned to stock temporarily for whatever reason and to drive it for a couple hundred kilometers so it can learn again etc (previously tuned by a different workshop with torque limiter removed apparently).. Few times already I've received trans and dtc failure messages and then it doesn't change gears at all until you turn it off/on again.

What is the best cause of action?

As a side question. Is there such a thing as the mk2 ECU's being "buggy" compared to the rest? Many thanks

Edited by Stelz87
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22 minutes ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

ZF Adaptive takes at least 200km to fully learn the clutch pack wear so that seems like a reasonable request. Nothing wrong with the mk2 PCMs.

As above, take it to a professional to diagnose properly

www.pcmtec.com/workshops

So the transmission and dtc failure messages are normal during this process?

This is from one of your workshops. Will try to get the error codes shortly.

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12 hours ago, Stelz87 said:

No error codes appeared on the scan unfortunately which is odd..

I haven't said anything yet as I was told to drive for a few hundred kilometers and was seeking advise to see if this is all normal before I open my mouth.

"I've received trans and dtc failure messages"

Where did you see that if there are no DTC codes?

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I'd suggest doing the gentle driving and let us know how the trans is behaving afterwards.

I recently tried some different trans tuning and was getting a slight flare between shifts when driving super gently. I just went back to my previous tune and it was fine again.

I might try the changes again and give it some time to adapt.

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You should have no faults and completing an adaptive drive cycle will not clear a fault.

 

If the vehicle is registering a fault (Which it clearly is) there is a fault that requires attention and no level of driving will repair a fault, in fact driving the car may cause further damage.

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I have been driving for a few days now and have so far done 65-70km. The transmission is starting to shift normal with the small hiccup here and there. The same error messages appeared yesterday though..

Waiting on the workshop to get back to me.

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Has the gearbox been out before? I have seen a few instances of TCM pins backing loose out of the plug after it has been removed causing disconnections randomly, this drops the canbus to the TCM and puts the car in a limp mode temporarily. You usually see comms fail or comms loss on the dash and then it magically fixes itself.

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2 minutes ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

Has the gearbox been out before? I have seen a few instances of TCM pins backing loose out of the plug after it has been removed causing disconnections randomly, this drops the canbus to the TCM and puts the car in a limp mode temporarily. You usually see comms fail or comms loss on the dash and then it magically fixes itself.

Yes although no issues prior to tune. On odd occasion will receive error message of vehicle not in park but I've learned to live with it.

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Haha think about it this way, why pay for an e85 tune if you can just run 98 octane and it'll be fine?!

But in all seriousness... you probably can but it's not advisable. The e85 tune will have about 30% more fuel so it will be too rich. The e85 tune will have (should have) too much timing in it also, so any attempt at brisk acceleration or boost, could and probably would make it knock. If you tried to floor it then it would likely misfire and eventually foul the plugs. Misfiring and knock under load are a very bad combination to have.

The O2 sensor will take over when various conditions are met and you could probably drive around gently like that if you had to. Basically 20% throttle and nothing else.

There is a fairly strong possibility that it wouldn't be able to start or run until the O2 sensor takes over (roughly 40 seconds from startup), in which case the plugs will be fouled and will need drying out, cleaning or replacing.

So the proper answer is no, but there are things you can do, when you know how and why things do what they do.

Google "fuel stoich" and you should find some useful reading material.

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There should be no error after the trans tune, sounds like someone is having a lend. Did you say you had a tune or a trans rebuild? Typically, a rebuilt trans that's been slipping will require up to 1500kms of gentle driving to reset the adaptive learning. A reflash does not reset the adaptive learning, contrary to what the software might indicate.

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I feel like I'm missing something here. I have flashed both pcm and tcm just a couple of days ago with the reset adaptive flag checked (it's always checked and has been flashed dozens of times), and the car is driving fine with no perceivable difference in the shifts and operation, unless of course a transmission function has been updated.

I haven't changed ZF03182 however and I don't think I will, unless I want to find out first hand if there is a difference between that and the reset adaptive function.

 

There is this...

On 2/27/2019 at 11:20 AM, Roland@pcmtec said:

To disable the long term learning algorithm set ZF03182 to 0

To reset the long term learning set this to 0, start the car and put it in gear. Turn the vehicle off then set the variable back to 1.

Then there is this...

On 2/28/2019 at 6:13 AM, richardpalinkas said:

Can this be done to a standard box also? And would there be any benefit of doing this to a standard transmission?

 

On 2/28/2019 at 8:45 AM, Roland@pcmtec said:

It would drive terribly if you disabled it on a box that had learnt the clutch wear.,

 

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Given you have not changed any hardware within the transmission e.g. Clutch's, solenoids etc. Little to no observable change will be noticeable. This does not mean they have not been reset.

 

The Adaptive learn on these transmissions is not how the transmission operates. It uses these maps to allow for differences in hardware. If your Transmission's hardware components are within specification, no noticeable change should be evident when resetting the adaptive learn however, if the Transmission has had a fault repaired, resetting the adaptive tables will aid the transmission operation to suit the new components and clear any adjustments that were made in an attempt to mask the mechanical concern.

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43 minutes ago, Puffwagon said:

I feel like I'm missing something here. I have flashed both pcm and tcm just a couple of days ago with the reset adaptive flag checked (it's always checked and has been flashed dozens of times), and the car is driving fine with no perceivable difference in the shifts and operation, unless of course a transmission function has been updated.

 

 

I've discussed this with another tuner and we're of the opinion this 'reset adaptive' does not reset the learned wear rate of the gearbox.

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2 minutes ago, Romulus said:

Correct. That's the radio box you can tick/untick. This function does not reset the clutch wear parameters in the trans.

Do you have any data to support this claim? As I have raw data that indicates the KAM (Keep Alive Memory) is cleared using this function. Not opinion.

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Just now, Puffwagon said:

Ok thanks for the info.

There seems to be some conflicting views on this which don't help matters.

As long as we have the correct info, it doesn't matter where it comes from.

If you've had a trans rebuilt (like I have), then I would heed the advice given and that is to do as much stop start driving as possible at low speeds (below 100km/h) and avoid as much WOT and kickdown for at least 500kms. 

I've done 2000k since my trans rebuild with Monsta Torque. I'm using the HAEK4PE trans calibration as in my opinion this is the best ZF calibration out of the FG's for the I6T. I've played with HAER1UB but I've noticed too much banging during upshifts at WOT. It's just not as well behaved as the FG F6 trans calibration.

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5 minutes ago, Whiteford said:

Do you have any data to support this claim? As I have raw data that indicates the KAM (Keep Alive Memory) is cleared using this function. Not opinion.

No RAW data. Only confirmation from having gone from a trans slipping on the 3-4 shift to a rebuilt trans with harsh initial gearshifts. The 'reset' does not do a full reset or memory clear from our observations. Have seen this with other rebuilt transmissions as well. There is a run in procedure that needs to be followed to allow the trans to relearn.

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Is the expectation resetting the KAM will provide smooth operation of the transmission shifts? Because that is not the intention. Again, The Keep Alive Memory is reset using this feature of the software but I think peoples expectation of what the KAM does is misunderstood.

The drive cycle is intended to be carried out after the KAM reset in order for the reset figures to learn new parameters following a repair. Naturally the transmission operation following the KAM reset will be erratic, hence the drive cycle.

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There was a procedure for the 4 speed ION transmission in the Falcons to reset the transmission after a repair. From memory it required specific gear positions for a set time in P, R, N & D to reset the learning function of the new or reconditioned box. 

 I accept what you say, and this is what the ZF needs, the reset adaptive function does not do this unfortunately.

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1 minute ago, Whiteford said:

Nothing I say will change your mind as you are basing your statement on opinion and not on data.

Yep. And the opinion of one of the best ZF trans builders in the country who's done hundreds of rebuilds. The adaptive reset down not override the necessity to run a trans in after a rebuild. Period.

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1 hour ago, Stelz87 said:

Tuner also mentioned he enabled the torque limiting function as it was previously disabled. Is it necessary?

Without torque limiting enabled a box will destroy itself in no time. It is absolutely required. 

The adaptive reset is done whenever a flash is done (unless you untick the box) so it is normal procedure to do so. The impact it has is fairly variable based on the tune and state of the box hence the highly variable reports you get (eg it does nothing vs it bangs and clunks). 

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1 hour ago, Stelz87 said:

Tuner also mentioned he enabled the torque limiting function as it was previously disabled. Is it necessary?

If the torque limiting was disabled on the previous tune then I'd say your gearbox is probably 80% rooted. The ZF behind a stock I6T wont last with torque management switched off.

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