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BTR 4 Speed Tuning


BFWAGON
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21 hours ago, BFWAGON said:

Hi Guys ,

Are Their any tips or guides on tuning  the btr to survive with 300-400 rwkw , ie pressures , shift timing , torque reduction or anything else related .

 

cheers chris

There are a few BTR gurus going around still. There is a few threads on here about them, PM those guys and see if they can offer any advice.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I've been trawling around the forums for any BTR tuning tips to no avail. One good thread describing how to change shift points after changing diff ratios but that seems to be it.

Main thing I want to change is to increase the line pressure. There's a fair amount of testimonials stating the BTR trans can survive with a fair amount of power by using high line pressure, usually accomplished in anything pre BA by disconnection S3 and S4 solenoids.

I've tried mucking about with Transmission High and Low Line pressure curves and didn't make any noticeable difference to the car.

Considering most of the tables for the BTR are unitless and the fact I'm using the enthusiast version of PCMTEC, it's hard to make heads or tits of what I'm looking at. 

If no one here has anything they can share, I think I'll just go with the manual ION transmission controller offered by shift kits australia (https://www.shiftkits.com.au/shop/ba-bf-ion-4-speed-tiptronic-full-manual-controller/) however this requires PCM control of the transmission to be disabled, which I assume you do by flashing it with a manual transmission tune?

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Best bet would be to try and speak to a shop or someone who has done this before and see if they are willing to give up their secrets. There are plenty of people who know however obviously they would rather keep this knowledge to themselves.

Disabling PCM control of the auto can be done by turning all the auto trans settings to manual.

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Thanks Roland.

So I found auF1013, (AUTO TRNS Switch) and setting it to 0 (manual) disabled the gears leaving the transmission permanently in 3rd. So I assume the PCM has stopped controlling the solenoids as my understanding is all solenoids off equals 3rd gear.

I have found changing the S5 Temperature correction (auF1512) values all to -500 has reduced how much the PCM uses the S5 solenoid on shifts. Mucking about with the Shift Ramp 1-2 Table A, just setting everything to -500 also seems to disable the S5 solenoid altogether during manual shifting, acting much like an aftermarket electronic shift kit but does some wonky stuff to the shift logic in D. Holding gears and not changing and possibly no engine braking. Also my trans smelt of clutch after this stint haha after but I was hammering it pretty hard.

If anyone out there has the professional version of PCMTEC and a car with a BTR, let me know, I would like a gander at the options that are available to the pro version vs enthusiast just to make sure there isn't any options for the trans I'm missing that would make this process easier. Just a screen shot like attached would do!

Tranmission pressures.jpg

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HAANGA3.tecJust attached a stock file for HAANGA3, you can see all the workshop, pro, enthusiast parameters in this file.

With professional you will be able to download all stock files and compare them using the calibration wizard.

If you want to see which parameters are workshop vs pro use the view -> PCM -> Workshop tick box to show only parameters for that level.

There is nothing extra in pro for those parameters, you should have everything already there. There are some other parameters in workshop which are fairly unknown what they do. You can see the list below.

There is discussion in a thread here about line pressure, I'm not sure you can actually increase it that much without modifying the transmission.

image.png.1be63b84ad6f5a819093546fa50014e3.png

image.thumb.png.7449e443430f3bcbdaa70c6de03e343f.pngimage.thumb.png.a24522a5544a92e50a4605bab3d46bce.pngimage.thumb.png.f46440fe2e38606c783adeaf04a24a82.png

image.png.b4134615a6df71947f89d8fb62d06430.png

edit: Actually you may not be able to see these parameters in the unlicensed file, I'm not sure if we did leave that enabled or not. Originally it was, but it may have been taken out (it was left there as a side effect of the file being unlicensed).

 

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I just spoke to someone and apparently the temperature offset table for the s5 is a way to globally add more pressure. Also the operation of the s5 solenoid is inverse, eg maximum pressure means the solenoid doesn't bleed off pressure which should do the same as those wire in shift kit resistors.

This is all second hand information and I honestly have little understanding of the control system or the internals of these transmissions, so please keep that in mind if you use that information. You need to be prepared for the possibility of killing the box if you are experimenting like this.

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Some more information, the s5 valve is a bleed valve, if you disconnect it you'll run 100% line pressure always. So the more duty cycle the less line pressure.

This only affects the s5 circuit though, there is a bar (band apply reg) and car (clutch apply reg) which multiply the s5 pressure. The pressure is split based on a ratio which is determined via a spring, you can change the ratio by changing the spring. Apparently the ratio is 2.4 on a turbo and 1.4 on an NA.

So it sounds like you either need to change the base line pressure (before s5) or change the spring to change the ratio.

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Because I like procrastinating I read the description in that manual and chatted to the guy who knows about these boxes.

Basically BAF is the oil pump pressure.

BAF pressure is bled off based on S5 pressure. Based on the spring sizes in the the band apply regulator you will see between 1.4x to 1.8x the S5 pressure on the band apply circuit. The stock tune already commands close to 0% duty on the S5 bias, so you may find there isn't actually much you can increase in the circuit.

So ultimately you need to change the spring inside the band apply regulator itself to increase line pressure. Same goes for the clutch apply regulator.

BAF pressure is dependent on RPM, so keep this in mind as well.

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First just like to give a big thanks to Roland, very much appreciate the help!

So maybe as a consequence of mucking about with too many fields at once, I have found that changing the values in the  S5 Global Temperature Correction table to -500 does indeed provide great results! Anecdotal observations made by another with an aftermarket shift kit in his NA BA point to modifying the S5 Temp correction to provide better results than the aftermarket shift kit but this maybe due to internal differences between the Turbo and NA box as Roland pointed above. (the turbo running a 2.4 ratio spring and the NA running 1.4)

s5 global temp.jpg

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Just a disclaimer, my box is not longed for this life haha and I'm prepared to destroy it with my fettling, just be prepared to take on the risk yourself before using these suggestions!

So this results in a fair thunk into second, chirps in the dry under load and spins up in the wet, the 2-3 shift speeds up substantially where as before when at high rpm/load it would take waaaay too long and was probably slipping lots.

I would say easy to live with for all bar the most fussiest of drivers. When driving with low throttle inputs, the shifts a are crisp but gentle. On a very casual look at trans temps, it seems this must has helped reduce temps. Way more testing would be required to verify this with certainty.

 

On 6/11/2019 at 2:48 PM, Roland@pcmtec said:

Basically BAF is the oil pump pressure.

BAF pressure is bled off based on S5 pressure. Based on the spring sizes in the the band apply regulator you will see between 1.4x to 1.8x the S5 pressure on the band apply circuit. The stock tune already commands close to 0% duty on the S5 bias, so you may find there isn't actually much you can increase in the circuit.

The stock tune commanding 0% duty cycle, is this what you've been told or can you see this in the tune?

I am no authority by any means on this hahaha, but from my data logging with Forscan, it appears most shifts were ramping up the S5 alot on each shift. There seems to be a 20% baseline duty cycle for the S5 solenoid, and on each shift in the stock tune it would spike up to well above 50% and closer to 90% with higher load situations. The mods I did to the S5 temp table, it nows seems to be working in reverse, going below the baseline 20% on shifts. I mean, I'm not looking at the big picture here but from what I can see on my data logging and by the seat of the pants, the S5 solenoid surely isn't approaching 0% duty cycle on the stock tune. I am wary of the possibility that these changes I've done might seem like big changes cause the shifts feel harder on all shifts and perhaps maybe in high load shifts maybe not much has changed.... But as it sits now I feel reducing the S5 pressure is reducing slip in the transmission.

Have a look at this data below, the S5 is in green (really should of logged throttle input for you guys haha, I neglected it for myself because I knew how much throttle I was using) 1.00 being full S5 duty cycle and 0 being none. You can see where the car is in stationary when it is at 1.00. Once the car is moving the duty cycle goes to 20%. The two spots at around the 27 second mark are WOT 1-2 and 2-3 shifts. In the stock tune the S5 solenoid would spike upwards rather than downwards.

trans data.jpg

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Anecdotal evidence going around the internet suggests the BTR (not ION box) can survive 10 second drag passes an 400rwkw having the s3 and s4 solenoids turned off. This gives more line pressure than S5 solenoids can return. (http://spoolinboost.wixsite.com/spoolinboostadelaide/btr-auto-mods)

Shift quality/comfort is severely reduced. And it appears whilst this mod is fairly easy on anything pre BA, it seems to cause some hiccups on the BA's. 

I've ended up ordering the manualised controller for a BA from shift kits australia, I going to try and get that working a report back. Maybe logging some trans temps for S5 mods verse S3/S4 delete.

And please anyone chime in with your real world experiences!

Edited by Tyson
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Good to see you getting right into it.

When I said s5 approaches 0% this is second hand information, however what they meant by 0% was full pressure, eg bleeding no pressure off. So this would 100% if you are looking at it in terms of pressure. As it is a bleed valve the % is reversed but I'm sure you get what I mean.

It seems to match your log as well, under a shift pressure increases (eg the % drops).

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  • 11 months later...

So I ending up installing the Shift Kits Australia ION controller https://www.shiftkits.com.au/shop/ba-bf-ion-4-speed-tiptronic-full-manual-controller/

So once having done that and knowing for sure I was getting 100% line pressure I gave up on the software tuning side. I think to seriously go down that path you would at least need the Professional version of PCMtec as I felt a lot of the relevant parameters were possibly missing in Enthusiast version.

If you don't wanna go the manualised route, I suggest starting with setting the s5 table to -500 as I have mentioned above and purchasing the Pro version of PCMtec. You'll quickly figure out why there is no info on this subject though haha. I think post people come to the same conclusion, full line pressure mod. Especially when you can buy a non turbo box for $200 and certainly seems to cope with a lot of abuse.

As for the controller it solves many problems, there's no safety protection for down changes which is good for drifting (what we use the cars for)

Full line pressure seems very manageable on the street and as a daily with a manualised box, keep revs low or keep load high for a smooth gear change.

Personally I much prefer it manualised as there is no kickdown nonsense and with a modified xr turbo you dont really need it.

My car has been running 650cc injectors, fuel pump, monza intercooler and 14psi plus a trans cooler with this controller and a E series BTR box and despite the absolute thrashing we give it, is holding up great. (3rd gear burnouts, stalling the trans at the lights for 10+ seconds, brake boosting etc)

Downsides are, it really could do with a gear indicator. Sometimes you lose track of what gear you're in. Never really a problem with a turbo cause it'll take off pretty quick in 3rd lol. But forget getting your girlfriend or a work colleague to drive your car home haha, it's too hard to explain unless they are into cars.

Obviously as there is no change down safety you could change down to 1st from second at high speed and destroy stuff, personally haven't had that problem.

It costs $350. And also you need to already have PCMtec to disable the transmission logic otherwise the car will go into limp mode.

The shift pattern is [1st-2nd-3rd-3rd with lockup-4th-4th with lockup] which is pretty much asking for an accidental full boost gear change into 3rd gear lockup and whilst my 3rd gear lockup still works, it feels pretty wonky sometimes.

If anyone wants to pick my brain further, tag me in this thread like Roland has and I'll get an email notification and come reply to your questions!

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • 1 year later...
On 7/4/2020 at 9:04 AM, Ultim8Carfit said:

Just made the change to S5 Global temp in our workshop BA Turbo ute. Box is now shifting like it should with crisp firm shifts. Highly recommend this mod. 

Ive chaned my trans temps to -500 and it shifts so much harder 

Seems well worth it so far

Edited by Midlandtuffknt
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  • 1 month later...
On 6/14/2019 at 10:04 AM, Tyson said:

First just like to give a big thanks to Roland, very much appreciate the help!

So maybe as a consequence of mucking about with too many fields at once, I have found that changing the values in the  S5 Global Temperature Correction table to -500 does indeed provide great results! Anecdotal observations made by another with an aftermarket shift kit in his NA BA point to modifying the S5 Temp correction to provide better results than the aftermarket shift kit but this maybe due to internal differences between the Turbo and NA box as Roland pointed above. (the turbo running a 2.4 ratio spring and the NA running 1.4)

s5 global temp.jpg

Thanks Tyson and all for this info . My btr is struggling under the power of the mighty Barra !! 

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  • 2 months later...

@Tysondoes the shift kits manual controller disconnect the S3 and S4 solenoids giving full line pressure?

Its been a million years since Ive done car stuff but that is what I used to do in my E series and AU turbo conversions. Its a shame the BF doesn't work the same. A few bucks vs $700 for the kit and pcm tec. 

 

 

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Hey man (it's Tyson)

It's been a while so don't quote me but I'm pretty sure that's what the shift kit is doing, what you're really paying for is the implementation of the b series shifter which for me was absolutely worth the money.

I think for drag racing, using the E series shifter is fine but for a fast road car/ drift car having the sequential shifter means all the difference for me personally.

I mean also in the scheme of things, having pcmtec is super useful anyway and the money spent on the shift controller is nothing really compared to what you'll pay in other mods haha.

You could probably put an E series btr on your b series and and do the s3 s4 mod. I bolted an E series trans to my ba, you just need to flip the gear selector rod in the transmission cause the gear selector cable in b series is on the opposite side of the transmission. I also swapped the E series harness for a B series harness so I could use the shift kit and b series shifter. Just disable the trans logic with pcmtec and use the transmission just like you would do in an e series

Hope that makes sense.

Cheers Tys

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  • 1 month later...
3 hours ago, Robertbossghia said:

awesome info have done this works well, but i do have another question, is there a way to get them to kickdown gears instantly with pcmtec like the shiftkits manual controller does, its for a customer burnout car tune :)

Hi , you can do this via “ kickdown pedal “ as a percentage? Just do a search in pcmtec program “ kickdown  pedal “ I think it is from memory. I had mine about 65%. In a funny way it possibly could save the box somewhat . As you can get the box to kickdown before the turbo spools up heaps of boost ( just my opinion no real hard data on that ?) . Cheers. 

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