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6hp21 to 6hp26


JM30
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Has anyone had success swapping out and programming a 6hp26 turbo box into an fgx which had a 6hp21 from factory being an na?

it will be getting a full turbo driveline eventually but just looking to replace the 6hp21 as mine is rooted.

 

Thanks.

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It is highly unlikely to be successful due to the fact ford never made such a vehicle. We highly recommend sticking to combinations that were made and sold by Ford. 

You may find a way to make it work but most likely you'll have a car with no ABS that is stuck in 3rd gear limp mode. 

Either find a full donor vehicle including BCM, cluster, ipc, abs, pcm and all looms or look at simply selling the vehicle and finding a turbo. It'll save you a lot of time and money. 

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On 6/24/2021 at 8:25 PM, Roland@pcmtec said:

It is highly unlikely to be successful due to the fact ford never made such a vehicle. We highly recommend sticking to combinations that were made and sold by Ford. 

You may find a way to make it work but most likely you'll have a car with no ABS that is stuck in 3rd gear limp mode. 

Either find a full donor vehicle including BCM, cluster, ipc, abs, pcm and all looms or look at simply selling the vehicle and finding a turbo. It'll save you a lot of time and money. 

Hi Roland,

Thanks for your fast reply,

what about the FGX utes that came out with a 6hp26 while being NA? I was speaking to someone in qld via Facebook who mentioned it should be doable merging the vid section on the tcm and ecu. I’m also half wondering if there were any police pack fgx na cars similar to fg na that got the lsd because perhaps they also got the 6hp26 and lsd as part of the heavy duty police package?

just trying to limit how many times I buy a gearbox as it will be getting a full turbo conversion later this year so if I can make a 6hp26 work now it saves me later.

 

Thanks

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It's news to me. Makes sense though as they have a higher towing capacity. 

We don't have the cal from this Ute and it's not available on the ford dealer site so you'd need to source the file yourself. Ford stopped uploading cals around 2015 so the only place you can get them is via s read from someones car. 

Either way sounds like a headache still as the ABS module will likely be different. 

Honestly go for gold just be willing to pull it all out again if it doesn't work. 

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1 hour ago, JM30 said:

Hi Roland,

Thanks for your fast reply,

what about the FGX utes that came out with a 6hp26 while being NA? I was speaking to someone in qld via Facebook who mentioned it should be doable merging the vid section on the tcm and ecu. I’m also half wondering if there were any police pack fgx na cars similar to fg na that got the lsd because perhaps they also got the 6hp26 and lsd as part of the heavy duty police package?

just trying to limit how many times I buy a gearbox as it will be getting a full turbo conversion later this year so if I can make a 6hp26 work now it saves me later.

 

Thanks

Would you mind posting the Tear Tags for both vehicles? It would be interesting to have a look at both files when time permits.

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2 minutes ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

It's news to me. Makes sense though as they have a higher towing capacity. 

We don't have the cal from this Ute and it's not available on the ford dealer site so you'd need to source the file yourself. Ford stopped uploading cals around 2015 so the only place you can get them is via s read from someones car. 

Either way sounds like a headache still as the ABS module will likely be different. 

Honestly go for gold just be willing to pull it all out again if it doesn't work. 

Yeah that is the trouble, my tuner/mechanic also isn’t super confident either. I just don’t really want to spend money replacing/fixing this 6hp21 just for a few months until full conversion.

unfortunately I don’t have access to the ute but it was just from some further research I did looking into the fgx utes after speaking to Brett in qld. A vin I found on Google confirmed the commercial utes or atleast some got the 6hp26 while also being Na. 

 

 

2D291F0D-0C25-4A16-96E7-06A4B336E6B7.png

7E1DCB5F-C1E3-4671-AD07-7BD355A43956.png

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2 minutes ago, JM30 said:

Yeah that is the trouble, my tuner/mechanic also isn’t super confident either. I just don’t really want to spend money replacing/fixing this 6hp21 just for a few months until full conversion.

unfortunately I don’t have access to the ute but it was just from some further research I did looking into the fgx utes after speaking to Brett in qld. A vin I found on Google confirmed the commercial utes or atleast some got the 6hp26 while also being Na.

Thanks for that. Sometimes, the information on ETIS isn't 100% correct but I hope it is.

I'll have to have a look at FGX ute Tear Tags when I spot one.

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54 minutes ago, Bill said:

Thanks for that. Sometimes, the information on ETIS isn't 100% correct but I hope it is.

I'll have to have a look at FGX ute Tear Tags when I spot one.

Yeah I hope so too, doesn’t really get me too much closer yet to the 21 to 26 swap plan yet though.

I checked a few more vins and interestingly seems most lpg got 21 and the 6hp26’s I found were mostly 2014-15 models and found a few 2016 ute models all pretty much 6hp21.

as you said etis might be incorrect but perhaps not at the same time.

These are the other vins I checked also.

im going to see if I can find someone with an fgx na ute who can provide me a tear tag if it helps you any further also.

 

Some of the other vins I checked,

6FPAAAJGCMFL8400
6FPAAAJGCMFS87290

6FPAAAJGCMGB95472

6FPAAAJGCMET61325

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31 minutes ago, JM30 said:

im going to see if I can find someone with an fgx na ute who can provide me a tear tag if it helps you any further also.

If you can get a tear tag from one that's got the 6HP26, that would be good. I've got a mate wanting to swap his 21 to a 26 because it's failing again.

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12 minutes ago, Bill said:

If you can get a tear tag from one that's got the 6HP26, that would be good. I've got a mate wanting to swap his 21 to a 26 because it's failing again

I have asked an fgx ute owner if they can possibly send me a tear tag. Not 100% if 6hp26 but we will see.

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41 minutes ago, Whiteford said:

This can be done

Do you have any insight in terms of what’s required if abs modules also need changing or if an fg 26 turbo box tcm can simply be matched up with an fgx na ecu?

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  • 10 months later...

Hi guys,

Just wandering if there was any further news on this 6HP21 - 6HP26 swap/upgrade?
Im interested in the outcome is because i have a 2016 Territory Mk2 (N/A, with 6HP21) which is currently being converted to Turbo & (6HP26 - from 2013 Territory Mk1) along with a 2008 FG Mk1 Turbo/Auto PCM.
If there is anyone who could shed some light on this, i would be greatly appreciative.

Cheers,
Brett

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As long as you swap everything from another turbo fg mk2 Territory you will be fine. 

You'll need ABS module, gearbox including tcm, pcm, wiring looms. You may need different ABS system or yaw sensors if the turbo Territory came with different DSC to the NA one. 

If it's AWD you'll need everything from an AWD turbo Territory. If this currently 2WD you are going to have a lot of dramas. 

It probably will be cheaper to sell the car and just buy a turbo Territory.

You may be able to make it work if you swap everything from a FG2 or FGX turbo sedan and make a 2wd turbo Territory. You'll need the full ABS system from the sedan however which may not work properly considering the large differences in weight. 

If you use a mk1 fg pcm nothing will work and highly recommend you don't do this.

Mk1 and mk2 are very different in how they work. You can't use a mk1 fg pcm and a fg2/fgx territory cluster as they won't talk and it will be permanently immobilised. 

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Hi Roland,
The "Donor car - "2013 Mk1 SZ Territory" was not a factory turbo... The last model to be factory turbo was SY.
The donor car was also converted to turbo. However, the SZ Mk1 was factory fitted with the 6HP26 trans unlike the SZ Mk2 which came with the 6HP21...
The Donor car was tuned using its factory PCM, just with external boost control (Turbosmart)
So my SZ Mk2 is being fitted with the earlier Mk1 6HP26 trans / TCM & i would like to use a PCM From a turbo model for its boost management.
I have 1 from a 2008 FG XR6T, but i believe this is a Mk1 unit. 
I know that you mentioned selling the car & purchasing a turbo Territory, but i don't like the shape of the older models, nor do i want a 4WD version.
The turbo engine & 6HP26 trans is already been installed, im somewhat committed to the project now.
You mentioned that if a Mk1 FG PCM is used, it would be "permanently immobilised".
Could you elaborate on this, What would component would be immobilised & when would this happen?
The reason for asking this is because i have contacted Whiteford Tech & Custom Machine Works about the conversion & they have asked for a Calibration from both my vehicles OEM PCM/TCM & the Donor vehicles Calibration files, along with images of the PCM tear tags...
I don't want to immobilize the vehicle accidently when doing this.
 

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21 hours ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

If you use a mk1 fg pcm nothing will work and highly recommend you don't do this.

Mk1 and mk2 are very different in how they work. You can't use a mk1 fg pcm and a fg2/fgx territory cluster as they won't talk and it will be permanently immobilised. 

You have me curious now as it was my understanding all fg turbo ECU/PCM's were the same hardware and you could flash them to be used in a mk2 or fgx from mk1. Just having to load the right software/tear tag data to suit.

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5 hours ago, Ghedina said:

You mentioned that if a Mk1 FG PCM is used, it would be "permanently immobilised".
Could you elaborate on this, What would component would be immobilised & when would this happen?
 

It might be possible to make it work if you have someone like Whiteford doing it, however the overwhelming majority of people would not be able to make it work. If you are already in contact with Whiteford, follow his advice and instructions.

The reason for my answers before are you have picked probably the most nightmare conversion I've ever heard of with  nothing matching. You are essentially creating a Frankenstein vehicle that was never sold, therefore most of the configurations won't line up and can't be lined up, whether the BCM and ABS will still function I cannot tell you with certainty, there is a risk that the combination of parts you've chosen may be impossible to make work together.

 

2 hours ago, JM30 said:

You have me curious now as it was my understanding all fg turbo ECU/PCM's were the same hardware and you could flash them to be used in a mk2 or fgx from mk1. Just having to load the right software/tear tag data to suit.

Yes you can change the operating system however that is not what he said. He said he would be using an FG Mk1 PCM in a Mk2/FGX which as far as I know will make the ABS, BCM or IPC not work or have various errors as the can communications is different. If he converted the FG Mk1 PCM back to a Mk2 Operating System then its a different story.

If you can reprogram the Mk2/FGX ABS/BCM/IPC to suit the Mk1 PCM it might be workable. Whiteford may know if this can be done.

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Hi Ghedina, I Personally haven't done what you have done to this extent.

Just a thought which may have been overlooked Turn off Pats (auF16595) as a starting point this will bypass all immobilize functions.

I cant see how your request wouldn't work, just may have incompatibility issues.  need to be trial and error everything and get the best outcome; try and disable the VID block (auF0389) to rule out compatibilities also,

Your most important stance is the OSID of the trans to match the PCM strategy also...

Use forscan/IDS along with PCMTEC.. You will get something going..

But as Roll's said "nightmare conversion"

 

All the best.

 

ABZ

Edited by abs351
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On 4/29/2022 at 1:50 PM, Roland@pcmtec said:

It might be possible to make it work if you have someone like Whiteford doing it, however the overwhelming majority of people would not be able to make it work. If you are already in contact with Whiteford, follow his advice and instructions.

The reason for my answers before are you have picked probably the most nightmare conversion I've ever heard of with  nothing matching. You are essentially creating a Frankenstein vehicle that was never sold, therefore most of the configurations won't line up and can't be lined up, whether the BCM and ABS will still function I cannot tell you with certainty, there is a risk that the combination of parts you've chosen may be impossible to make work together.

 

Yes you can change the operating system however that is not what he said. He said he would be using an FG Mk1 PCM in a Mk2/FGX which as far as I know will make the ABS, BCM or IPC not work or have various errors as the can communications is different. If he converted the FG Mk1 PCM back to a Mk2 Operating System then its a different story.

If you can reprogram the Mk2/FGX ABS/BCM/IPC to suit the Mk1 PCM it might be workable. Whiteford may know if this can be done.

Hi Roland,
Thanks so much for involving yourself with this project of mine.
I should clarify a few things about the conversion first.

The reason I purchased the Donor engine / trans / PCM & TCM calibrations out of an already converted SZ-1 Territory (thinking it would be a simple swap into my SZ-2)
Since finding out that Ford changed the CAN protocol between the Mk1/2 model variants has complicated this somewhat.  
The only difference i hoped to achieve from the original SZ-1 owners build was to incorporate a FG-1/2/X PCM for its boost control & PCMtech map switching functions.
I mentioned before about using a 2008 FG-1 PCM for this, but if you could advise on a model variant of PCM that is much better suited & will communicate with all my vehicles other modules, I would not hesitate to source 1.
The only reason i planned to use the 2008 FG-1 PCM is because it was in stock...
The only Ecu which i believe am "stuck" with is the TCM.
From what i understand, the TCM in my 6HP21 is the same dimensions & fitment as what is in the 6HP26, but both are not interchangeable with each other.

I very much would like to avoid this turning into a "Frankenstein build" as much as possible,
Which is why i have already researched & contacted companies/individuals that specialise in this field (Whiteford Tech & Custom Machine Works)

Again, i would like to thank you & others for their time & advise thus far & for any future information.
Regards,
Brett
 

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On 4/29/2022 at 11:18 AM, JM30 said:

You have me curious now as it was my understanding all fg turbo ECU/PCM's were the same hardware and you could flash them to be used in a mk2 or fgx from mk1. Just having to load the right software/tear tag data to suit.

Hi JM30,
Thanks for this piece of information.
Cheers,
Brett

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6 hours ago, abs351 said:

Hi Ghedina, I Personally haven't done what you have done to this extent.

Just a thought which may have been overlooked Turn off Pats (auF16595) as a starting point this will bypass all immobilize functions.

I cant see how your request wouldn't work, just may have incompatibility issues.  need to be trial and error everything and get the best outcome; try and disable the VID block (auF0389) to rule out compatibilities also,

Your most important stance is the OSID of the trans to match the PCM strategy also...

Use forscan/IDS along with PCMTEC.. You will get something going..

But as Roll's said "nightmare conversion"

 

All the best.

 

ABZ

Hi ABZ,
Thanks for the informative reply.
I agree about the TCM OSID being a sticking point... 
I believe that Whiteford Tech or Custom Machine Works can resolve this issue for me & hope to enlist either of their SVC's soon.
Cheers,
Brett

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The vehicle comms networks are vastly different between mk1 and mk2. They also run different diagnostic specs, a mk1 pcm will not be able to talk to other ECU's in a mk2 vehicle, its like putting a toyota corolla pcm into a mitsubishi lancer.

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Hi Ghedina,

There are tools out there to change the OS of the TCM with K-line protocol or direct access to the MPC. Id start searching the web as this has been done before within the BMW space.

I've looked into this prior, got the entire binary from the TCM, but never bothered any further as I don't have a need as of yet to do it myself.

I know this is of the topic but have a read through this post and get to know the right guys who will help. Its all free sources  🙂

https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1125073&page=23

If you are keen on keeping it simple, if you can flash the correct binary into the PCM and modify certain values within the PCM binary to match up the PCM S/N and OSID.. this of course is subject to your technical skill set, I'd ping Matt @ Bullet performance they are good at TCM OSID swaps and knowledge who are always helpful.

If you are really interested, from an electronic perspective at a low level here is example, i somewhat did the same years ago..

 

image.png.d868f4359961f42b006575123a5150ed.png

 

 

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22 hours ago, abs351 said:

Hi Ghedina,

There are tools out there to change the OS of the TCM with K-line protocol or direct access to the MPC. Id start searching the web as this has been done before within the BMW space.

I've looked into this prior, got the entire binary from the TCM, but never bothered any further as I don't have a need as of yet to do it myself.

I know this is of the topic but have a read through this post and get to know the right guys who will help. Its all free sources  🙂

https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1125073&page=23

If you are keen on keeping it simple, if you can flash the correct binary into the PCM and modify certain values within the PCM binary to match up the PCM S/N and OSID.. this of course is subject to your technical skill set, I'd ping Matt @ Bullet performance they are good at TCM OSID swaps and knowledge who are always helpful.

 

 

Hi ABS 351,
Thanks for your input & advise on contacting Matt @ Bullet Performance,
I have already been in contact with both Whiteford Tech & CMW about this so will follow thru with those guys before troubling another workshop with the same questions.
I also appreciate your tech info /  BMW thread.
Cheers,
Brett @ PACE Motorsport

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20 hours ago, jakka351 said:

The TR6060 is much easier to work with. No engineering conjumblebumblebeetuna. 

Hi jakka351,
Agreed about the TR6060, but not as nice to drive for the wife unfortunately...
This being her car makes that my problem to deal with.
Cheers,
Brett @ PACE Motorsport

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On 4/30/2022 at 10:12 PM, Ghedina said:

I mentioned before about using a 2008 FG-1 PCM for this, but if you could advise on a model variant of PCM that is much better suited & will communicate with all my vehicles other modules, I would not hesitate to source 1.
The only reason i planned to use the 2008 FG-1 PCM is because it was in stock...
The only Ecu which i believe am "stuck" with is the TCM.
From what i understand, the TCM in my 6HP21 is the same dimensions & fitment as what is in the 6HP26, but both are not interchangeable with each other.

I have some time so I'll write a better reply rather than "don't do it, it'll be a nightmare".

PCM

If the primary reason for getting that Mk1 PCM was so you have boost control then you should be able to simply flash an appropriate Mk2 ZF Turbo OSID onto it and you'll have working boost control without dramas of trying ot make it work like a Mk1, you MAY have issues with different IO configuration however, I would expect you will also need the Mk2 Turbo loom to suit, otherwise pins may be missing or not line up in the plugs. I would look for a Mk2 Turbo Sedan as your base. You'll then need to do some magic with the fact it is now a 2wd territory, not a sedan though. Eg diff ratios, shift points, tyre rev per mile etc will all need adjusting.

TCM

When you flash the PCM make sure you flash the TCM as well with a matching pair of strategies as per this thread here. Your 6HP21 TCM can be converted to a 6HP26 via special software (not via OBD) which Whiteford, Custom Machine works or BPR can all do for you (I think). I believe they require the TCM sent to them and it can't be done in car easily. If you use an actual FG 6HP26 TCM then you can just reflash it using PCMTEC without any dramas, if you bought a FG Turbo box, I assume you also got a TCM with it?. If it is from a BF then you will need to send it away to have to converted.

ABS

You can attempt to flash your ABS module to suit a turbo sedan using Forscan however two things may happen, first it may simply be incompatible (not sure if the Territory uses the same Bosch hardware or not). Or it may flash however it faults do to weight differences and a different ABS hardware configuration (eg the wheel speed sensors etc, Im unsure if they are the same or not).

As built configs can be found here.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/344706629955641

and here

If that does not work then you'll need to source an actual Turbo ABS module from a sedan and likely any hardware that comes with it.

BCM/ICC

The cluster and BCM will also be different however it may not matter, I know that the CCC in the Mk2/FGX cluster can be reprogrammed with some magic to change from auto to manual (Whiteford can do this). I'm not sure if any changes are required when going from NA to Turbo.

Wiring

Turbo and NA wiring looms are likely different, so is the sensor configuration. If you haven't transplanted the engine with the full loom you may get some DTCs for missing sensors or different configurations. Make sure to do a DTC read with Forscan.

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