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NA+T BF zf6


dat111
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hey guys. i currently have my ZF BF with 320km  installed in my NA falcon with a turbo on it. running 5psi. 

was wondering is it possible to use the NA TCM  into the turbo box with no issues? or do i need to match all the serial numbers etc?
or just drop the valve body replace all the seals an then bolt back up an off ya go. ?
there's nothing wrong with the box besides (minor slip from 3-4 at low RPM) 

what sort of learning curve to tuning the box is there?

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3 hours ago, dat111 said:

was wondering is it possible to use the NA TCM  into the turbo box with no issues? or do i need to match all the serial numbers etc?
or just drop the valve body replace all the seals an then bolt back up an off ya go. ?

You can swap the currently working NA TCM into the turbo box. I'd recommend replacing the valve body gasket, seals, including the one for the ZF TCM wiring connector & transmission filter if you are swapping them over. You may need to carry out some tuning due to the different number of clutch packs.

Another option if you don't want to swap the TCM's is reprogramming the TCM. Something that might be considered with a fresh box that you don't want to open up.

3 hours ago, dat111 said:

what sort of learning curve to tuning the box is there?

There's a fair amount to learn with tuning the ZF & there's a good amount of support within the group. Check out the transmission tuning section of the forum
https://forum.pcmtec.com/forum/19-transmission-tuning/
and also the HOWTO section. You'll find more info there. Here's an example

 

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hi bill thanks so much for that.

i have been playing around with the demo.
i am trying to understand pressures, the "how to ZF trans maps" i couldnt find the command prompts i searched for them an had no luck. this is me having a play around with the demo creating a  what i might call "safe" timing an fuel map 

248645790_948858655716745_6665770263766419282_n.jpg

249751049_422394495905540_3155537185469837748_n.jpg

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1 hour ago, dat111 said:

hi bill thanks so much for that.

i have been playing around with the demo.
i am trying to understand pressures, the "how to ZF trans maps" i couldnt find the command prompts i searched for them an had no luck. this is me having a play around with the demo creating a  what i might call "safe" timing an fuel map 

No worries dat111.....sounds like you might not be changing the licencing level for PCM & TCM for the file you're looking at or the Demo file HAEDHB2 may not include the ZF. It was a few years ago that I was looking at demo files.
The lower the level "Enthusiast", the less you will see. As you increase to "Professional" & "Workshop", the more parameters & tables you get access to.
Here's where you change what you can see at each licencing level if you haven't found it
image.thumb.png.cfb92086f1bc233eecacbd84f9444c7c.png


image.thumb.png.9a4596e03dc9e613e430eab7dede1ab9.png

 

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3 minutes ago, Bill said:

No worries dat111.....sounds like you might not be changing the licencing level for PCM & TCM for the file you're looking at or the Demo file HAEDHB2 may not include the ZF. It was a few years ago that I was looking at demo files.
The lower the level "Enthusiast", the less you will see. As you increase to "Professional" & "Workshop", the more parameters & tables you get access to.
Here's where you change what you can see at each licencing level if you haven't found it
image.thumb.png.cfb92086f1bc233eecacbd84f9444c7c.png


image.thumb.png.9a4596e03dc9e613e430eab7dede1ab9.png

 

thanks so much bill!! it seems that the file im using in the demo does not have it!! that explain it!! 

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3 minutes ago, dat111 said:

thanks so much bill!! it seems that the file im using in the demo does not have it!! that explain it!! 

Check all the Demo files to see if any have the ZF. Even if it's not exactly your vehicle, it'll still give you an idea of how much is in each level

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17 minutes ago, dat111 said:

ive tried clicking on TCM an i cant actually click on it, its actually blanked out. maybe i have no idea what im doing lol. i have the "fg xr6T"one 

If the TCM is greyed out, it's not included in the file.

14 minutes ago, dat111 said:

sorted it out mate!! thanks a ton

No worries!!

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53 minutes ago, dat111 said:

@Bill do you know if forscan has the ability to reset the adaptive shift patterns?

FORScan has a TCM Module Reset function. I haven't tested it to confirm if it resets adaptations.

When you write a TCM file using PCMTEC, you have the option to reset "TCM Adaptive"

image.thumb.png.d55d2951b957114a96050f13149572a1.png

 

Edited by Bill
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5 hours ago, Bill said:

This is something that was debated in another post & my interpretation of the response from @Roland@pcmtec was that it will reset the ZF adaptive if ticked.image.thumb.png.cb0720cc4a8c8d1d7ccdac0fdb7c303b.png

It does a "ecu reset" for both the PCM and TCM. This doesn't reset the adaptive learning just does a power reset which clears some adaptive learnt items. 

As a consequence of the flash and the checksums changing the PCM automatically resets the LTFT data. So this occurs regardless when you do a flash. 

TCM adaptive can be cleared using the instructions in the tcm kam thread. The TCM only relearn a under specific conditions, as these conditions are not documented it can take up to 1500km as it's kind of pot luck if you have the trans in the right state to readapt. If you have it in the sweet spot it can occur in under 30mins, unfortunately we don't have any documentation on this. You can log all of the adaptive conditions and it could probably be figured out with the right person logging. 

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3 hours ago, dat111 said:

are knock ears a must or an option?

 

I got away with not using them for years cos I knew what to look out for. I use them now and for safety I'd recommend using them considering you are new to it.

 

3 hours ago, dat111 said:

im going to keep timing about 7 degrees 

Don't pick an arbitrary number, let the car tell you where it wants to be. Start low and work your way up. If get get a knock solution that has a graphical output then it will be very easy to spot where it starts to knock.

If you run low timing then boost control can be difficult as the engine will be flowing more exhaust gas through the turbo and in turn wanting to make more boost. It can spike on gear changes if the timing is too low on a shift but there are other things influencing the shift timing.

The car will feel like a slug if it is low on timing but this is something you will find out on your own eventually.

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40 minutes ago, Puffwagon said:

 

I got away with not using them for years cos I knew what to look out for. I use them now and for safety I'd recommend using them considering you are new to it.

 

Don't pick an arbitrary number, let the car tell you where it wants to be. Start low and work your way up. If get get a knock solution that has a graphical output then it will be very easy to spot where it starts to knock.

If you run low timing then boost control can be difficult as the engine will be flowing more exhaust gas through the turbo and in turn wanting to make more boost. It can spike on gear changes if the timing is too low on a shift but there are other things influencing the shift timing.

The car will feel like a slug if it is low on timing but this is something you will find out on your own eventually.

thanks alot for that puff wagon. it has had a "base tune" by a tuner, im going to get him to polish it off. an then i will play around with more overtime.

im extremely conserved with my timing as (safer the better) but now you bring that to alight it suggests not always. safe is best. it can use other issues.
hoping to not use knock ears, as me been conservative with timing as sticking to around .90 lambda in my base fuel map. 

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0.9 will probably be too lean to make decent power. You want to aim for 0.8 to 0.85 on petrol in a boosted application. You will start losing power if you go richer than 0.8.

You can run a car lean and have it not knock by running less timing, but generally we run them richer with more timing.

If you wanted to find this out yourself, install an egt and see what happens with afr changes, and also see what happens to the knock threshold. Ideally this will be done on a dyno to measure the changes but you can extrapolate a fair bit without one.

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  • 2 weeks later...

thought i may revive this thread!! 

so after some consideration. I think tuning my own car is the best idea for me
(as i can get the results i want)

AEM wideband
laptop
dlp8
openport 2.0

*its got a base tune in it (have a mate who knows what his looking at to come by an have a look at the tune next weekend*
at this moment, im chasing an odd issue  its got a base tune in it (have a mate who knows what his looking at to come by an have a look at the tune next weekend* 

comes into boost, feels like a misfire but it feels like it hits a wall, when its warming upto operating temp (5-7 mins of driving) after 20-35mins it starts to feel like its hitting a wall. (starts doing it from about 2000rpm when it comes into boost, as low as 2psi anything over that it just hits a wall) it has no crappy idle. afterwards or anything. in vaccum it drives like a dream 

5500km old genuine coils
5000km old ford plugs gapped to .7mm
new fuel filter
new OEM delphi fuel pump in mail. 
(it does need a new intake gasket) 
new bosch oxygen sensors 


people have said its

valve springs
tune
it needs new coils/plugs
torque reduction from the NA computer for the box. 
so im starting with the complete basics. so they are atleast covered an renewed. 

any tips on things to log?
mate thinks if the timing is too low with it being rich it MAY be the issue. 

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"comes into boost, feels like a misfire but it feels like it hits a wall, when its warming upto operating temp (5-7 mins of driving) after 20-35mins it starts to feel like its hitting a wall. (starts doing it from about 2000rpm when it comes into boost, as low as 2psi anything over that it just hits a wall) it has no crappy idle. afterwards or anything. in vaccum it drives like a dream"

::edit:: 
comes into boost, when its warming upto operating temp (5-7 mins of driving) its fine no issues.but after after 20-35mins it starts to feel like its hitting a wall. (starts doing it from about 2000rpm when it comes into boost, as low as 2psi anything over that it just hits a wall) it has no crappy idle. afterwards or anything. in vaccum it drives like a dream

 

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thanks for that roland. 

i have done a DTC scan forscan an nothing has popped up.
process of elimination
genuine coils
genuine ford plugs gapped to .7mm
replacing OEM delphi fuel pump
fuel filter 
has new 4 bar bosch reg
anything you care to add for this weird  thing goin on


im doing above to rule out the complete basic's of fuel an spark. 
i hoping it will not be valve springs, as low as 2psi it starts to happen. 
somebody suggested "air load" could that be the same as KPA reading on forscan?

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  • 2 months later...

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