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Hanging onto 1st after zip kit install


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Hey all i have an FG mk1 xr6t (stock) and since doing a zipkit with new tube seals/ bridge seal and new lifeguard fluid in my zf6 it seems to have messed up pressures or something and what will happen is 1st gear revs out a bit then disengages alltogether for a split second then bangs into 2nd, is that a shift delay problem? All other gears are fine on upshit and but downshifts seem a bit too firm (and randomly clunk a bit as well) just wondering if theres some params to back off or speed up on things to get it shifting smoother oh and it also has a pwr trans cooler fitted if that helps in regards to pressure drop etc

any help on where to start would be great! Thanks!

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Just an update ive dropped a heap of pressure out of 1st gear as per @Puffwagon suggestion in another thread and that definitely helped but still a bit delayed on the shift just seeing which shift pattern i need to change to get it into gear a little quicker, thanks! 

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Assuming that you've done the install correctly and all is well mechanically, it is likely your adapts will need to be unlearned. There is no quick process for this other than keep driving it. I can't remember the parameter number, I have posted it before, but adapts will only change above a certain temperature. Default is 70degC. 

There is ZF cloning over obd available now, I don't know if that process can reset the adapts. @Whiteford have you done any testing on this?

When you say zip kit, did that include reg / boost valve changes too?

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Hi mate thanks for replying! The kit they supplied was for all the valves with the sandwich plate etc, solenoids were replaced last year too just worried im going to break something with how bad its banging into 2nd, i do about 140kms a day for work so i can keep on driving it if its relearning and see, its not there as much when its cold or just after a reset more when its warmed up, sorry if my decriptions arent great let me know if theres any more info i can give :)

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  • 3 weeks later...

Just to follow up on this one i been playing with pressures as the shifting stayed the same for the last 2000kms (i havent had a way to do a full reset on the tcm) upshifting has been pretty much fixed and a few various other pressures through the oncoming downshift/kickdown to stop it from clunking, been working hard on it the only one i cant seem to work out is the slow down/coasting down gears, mainly the 3>2 on a long stretch of road (kick down is good), if someone could let me know which parameters to change for the coasting stuff i think id be set! TIA

 

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Look in the ZF trans pressure downshift section. Oncoming pressure is the pressure applied to the gear you're shifting into. Offgoing pressure is the pressure used to hold the current gear you're in.

ZF00609, ZF00626 and ZF00634 are shift pressure oncoming for the downshift. Lower them by 5% at a time in the area it's clunking.

Here is a bit of a read about it https://forum.hptuners.com/showthread.php?36986-Concise-definition-of-oncoming-offgoing-pressure-and-clutch-volume

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Thanks puff! I'll have a good read on that and play with that section, most of it was self explanatory but the on and off I was getting tripped up on, just one thing before I do try that this morning I noticed while it was cold it shifted superb through all gears exactly how I wanted it to, does that have anything to do with the temp offset? Or should I leave that alone and only go for the gear on/off while at operating temperatures? Thanks!

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I would rather change the table that is causing the issue but it's not the only way to do it. If I couldn't get it to work by changing the table then I would look at the temp offset. Up to you how you approach it, if the car drives fine after the change then it's not wrong.

It might be fixable with the temp offset, it would just do a global change at that temp so you might end up with other areas that need fixing.

This is a modified temp offset table that I have for a built trans. It's worth noting that this will be adding pressure. If your car was working better when cold, maybe it does need more pressure rather than less pressure. Stock is 0 at 40C, 60C and 100C, this one has a bit more pressure at 100C, so at operating temp of 70C or whatever it will interpolate between 60 and 100 and give you a bit more pressure. Lol you can round those numbers up to 1 or 2 decimal points, I just copy pasted it.

-30    10.8778303189874
-20    9.42745294312245
0    8.70226425518995
10    4.35113212759498
25    2.90075475172999
40    1.45037737586499
60    0
100    0.725188687932496
110    1.45037737586499
130    2.90075475172999

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Ok sweet so by fiddling with the temp offsets it's going to muck around with other things basically? Wasn't sure if that was linked to doing that the shift pressures are just that though aren't they? 

I've already dropped around 20% out of 2nd to get it changing perfect in the gear selection table (not sure why that one worked) as the oncoming wasn't doing anything, been great since 

If I do decide to go down the temp offset route is 5-10% at a time ok or can I bridge the values where a 0 has been input for example if 60 is 0.7,  then 80 is 0 and 100 is 0.7 can I run 80 at 0.7 to keep it the same right the way through? Or is there a reason it zeros out?

I'll try higher pressures though as I keep dropping them and it makes barely a difference even with up to 30%

 

Sorry for the questions just wanted to get the info I needed while I have you haha

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Yes the temp offset is just an adder or subtractor to the gearbox pressures. It's just not changing it by much when you get close to operating temp ie 60C to 100C. The reason it is zero there is because that is where the trans is operating, so there is no need for it to adjust the pressure. You could have it zero at these temps or you can fine tune it to have a little bit of influence there, it doesn't matter.

To answer the question directly, you can put 0.7 there if you want, it is entirely up to you and how you want your car to operate. Nothing bad will come of it if that is your concern. 5% is probably a good place to start, you won't need to change any of the really cold stuff or really hot stuff, it is pretty much already tuned. You need to log how hot your trans is so you know where to make changes.

Usually when you're tuning something, you will get it up to operating temp, tune everything so it works how you want it to, then you will do it again from cold and adjust all of the temp correction settings afterwards. This is the same for engine coolant temp, intake air temp, trans temp and any other temp you can think of that will affect the operation of the engine or trans.

 

You can reset the adapts with this method, you might find that all of the adjusting you've done so far will be changed but the option is there anyhow. It might fix the clunk that you're having. Read through that thread anyway, there is some more info on how to get the trans to relearn quicker.

On 12/13/2022 at 1:23 PM, Puffwagon said:

Stock value is 2. I set it to 0, flashed the TCM and adapts had returned to 0. I started the car and adapts stayed at 0. I then returned ZF02859 to 2, flashed the TCM, started the car and adapts stayed at 0. Went for a quick drive, not enough to get it up to temp and the adapts were still at 0 went I got home.

Built trans, not much wear, only drove it gently cos built motor running from cold, trans didn't feel much different. I'll take it for a longer drive later and see what happens.

 

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Honestly that info will definitely sort me out that's so good of you to share all this I really appreciate the time and effort you have gone to! 

I will play around with what you have mentioned in these posts there has been dribs and drabs in other posts I've seen but better to get the full story and not break anything

If I haven't had any luck I will do the reset do I need workshop for that? 

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I don't know if you need the workshop version, you can search for that scalar and see if you can find it. I'll check tomorrow.

Changing the areas you think need adjusting by a few psi won't hurt anything.

If it is only a pressure issue on decel downshift, you should be able to have it sorted easily enough. Decel with injectors off is the top row of the shift map, it has negative torque. Decel with the injectors partially on would be the row under it etc.

You can log where the engine runs through a map with the map trace function. I haven't tried it with a trans map but I don't see why it wouldn't work. Another thing I'll check tomorrow.

Don't get overwhelmed with it tho, it could just be 4 to 6 cells in 3 separate maps that need adjusting.

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Oh that's what the negative values are, I was just looking at that about 10 mins ago makes complete sense! That just really helped a tonne in working out the decel and which bits I'm looking at haha 

But yes I feel like it's right on the verge of getting spot on just needs that bit more tinkering, like I was saying though the only thing that had me was the decel change clunk (I also checked temps and it got a little worse as it got to 90deg) I will definitely do some logging though and see what it spits out could just be all I need to really do,  and thanks a heap for the guidance on the parameters too, think I got what I need for the moment but I'll report back after some logs and some changes, if you do find out about the reset though on pro version that would be great just as a backup plan if I need to nuke it haha

 

 

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