ZF shift event

[BeerTurbo]

Howdy,

 

ill do a little backstory -

Stock turbo territory with a bad ZF, drove it around fro a couple of months until 2nd gear was basically not there.The shifting was basically rubbish, so i have no mental reference of zf shifting.

Swapped trans on the weekend, while fitting high flow cat and middle muffler delete. now the exhaust is much more noticeable and can hear the engine much better. 

 

So now the new trans did not need any programming interaction, it seems to just work. i pulled the file from pcmtech and it noticed the trans SN changed. 
Car drives mint in most circumstances except for under most to full load shifts.

Car seems to have a shift event triggered, lose around 1500 rpm, trigger the shift burble noise that i assume is super spark retard, while at the same time trying to lock in the next gear.

from what i can fine in videos most fg shift events events are immediately folowed by the burble and then a  reduction of rpm before catching any gear.

 

so my question would be, where do i look / what should i be data lodging around this time to find out why im getting a disruptive burble so late?

cheers guys.

 

 

 

[finnigan001]

So from what im understanding is that when shifting up your getting the 'fart' after the revs have reduced?

Was the new ZF out of a similar car/pcm strategy? 

I would look at your torque requestor settings.  Transmission torque truncation and Shift torque reduction and see if there is anything weird in there.  is the pcm asking for a greater reduction than actually required etc.  This might be the chase if you've made some changes previously to help with the old ZF issues.

[BeerTurbo]

4 minutes ago, finnigan001 said:

So from what im understanding is that when shifting up your getting the 'fart' after the revs have reduced?

Was the new ZF out of a similar car/pcm strategy? 

I would look at your torque requestor settings.  Transmission torque truncation and Shift torque reduction and see if there is anything weird in there.  is the pcm asking for a greater reduction than actually required etc.  This might be the chase if you've made some changes previously to help with the old ZF issues.

Hey

Yeah she will drop 1500 rps or there about's then Fart.

Yeah it was out of a same build car (Sy turbo territory) one year older than mine, so pretty close.

I was reading another thread here and it said the fuel cut was the one that makes the burble on ZF gear-change, not the spark retard as i orgionally thought.

I will have to check the live file, as the file i brought to work has all the stock torque settings. perhaps i changed it back but dident flash them in.

 

 

[finnigan001]

40 minutes ago, BeerTurbo said:

I was reading another thread here and it said the fuel cut was the one that makes the burble on ZF gear-change, not the spark retard as i orgionally thought.

Yeah, this is correct.

I ask about how close the ZFs are as there may be some difference in torque reduction setttings, ie amount of torque to request,  that might be different.  But i think you should be ok there.

[Roland@pcmtec]

Do a compare of the old strategy to new, its possible it was out of a vehicle with a different diff ratio. Compare will show everything. You can try different TCM calibrations for free (you get 2.5*PCM license count TCM licenses included) Just make sure the TCM OSID, diff ratio and calibration level match (make sure ZF03987 and auF1692 are the same number).

[BeerTurbo]

On 8/5/2019 at 10:29 AM, Roland@pcmtec said:

Do a compare of the old strategy to new, its possible it was out of a vehicle with a different diff ratio. Compare will show everything. You can try different TCM calibrations for free (you get 2.5*PCM license count TCM licenses included) Just make sure the TCM OSID, diff ratio and calibration level match (make sure ZF03987 and auF1692 are the same number).

Everything looks the same, minus the ZF serial number. strat, diff etc etc all seem same. 

ZF03987 and auF1692 are both 0 for both files.

All torque and spark type requestors are stock.


good chance i reset the tcm adaptive when i installed the box, would need to undergo a long learn process?

 

[BeerTurbo]

i do have :

auF1479 : Lambse value to be used when the TQ_SELECT_SW (tq_source) == 0 : set to 0.8 instead of 1.04.

 

should i change that back?

[finnigan001]

Yeah may as well try.

Having it at 0.8 means that when a torque event(torque reduction on gear shift for instance) wont lean out the fuel. Could affect shifting in conjunction with other torque requestor settings.

I have mine the other way. Slightly richer rather than slightly leaner. enrichment rather than enleanment. More details in the traction control how-to.

[Roland@pcmtec]

I actually haven't logged that to be 100% that it does make it richer, but it is my belief from everything I looked at (and the backfires) that it does. Because of the misfiring (due to fuel cut) you can't rely on the wideband to tell the true story.

It certainly can't be less safe than the other number though.

[BeerTurbo]

I

[BeerTurbo]

I changed auF1479  to .95 and it certainly reduced the noise and angryness of the pops and bangs.

then today i was getting a check engine light and traction control light was coming one randomly, but going away after a restart then sometimes coming back. 

I actually payed attention to my boost gauge (it has no light and recent been all night driving).. its over boosting in 1-2 since removing the mid muffler and on the shift event its holding quit a bit of boost in the change even, like 16 psi...so the check eng light was the wastegate check/fail dealo...

i data loged all 4 wheel sensors and the steering angle and everything seems to be working when i did the data log...so i guess ill be lucky to catch it when its a problem.

anywho, reduced boost down to wg and it holding 9 and not being a spikey boy - the shift event is much more normal.

[Roland@pcmtec]

Extra spark retard will cause a boost spike. The FGs have a wastegate adder for spark retard to pull back the duty cycle. This will stop a boost spike, someone else on here commented in a thread about it.

[BeerTurbo]

3 hours ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

Extra spark retard will cause a boost spike. The FGs have a wastegate adder for spark retard to pull back the duty cycle. This will stop a boost spike, someone else on here commented in a thread about it.

yeah its also kinda why i asked about that elec bov trigger during gear change, cause its allways sort of done it to an extent.

but i guess if spark retards still spooling turbo, having the bov dump may just cause it to overspeed the turbine.

idk, ill keep playing.

[Roland@pcmtec]

Just drop the duty cycle to 0% during a shift, that will stop it spiking.

[BeerTurbo]

56 minutes ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

Just drop the duty cycle to 0% during a shift, that will stop it spiking.

Hi Roland, 

i dont have auF2714 or auF3002 on the territory file. 

 

 

[finnigan001]

so from above i had same boost spiking issues and used those settings to try and remedy the situation, seen here :

 

However the real fix came adjusting my torque requestors, detailed here:

 

[Roland@pcmtec]

2 hours ago, BeerTurbo said:

Hi Roland, 

i dont have auF2714 or auF3002 on the territory file. 

Which strategy and what version of the editor do you have? BF does not have these tables I believe from memory.

[BeerTurbo]

11 hours ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

Which strategy and what version of the editor do you have? BF does not have these tables I believe from memory.

HACH4K6.HEX / 77DB

PROFESSIONAL

being a territory, i assume its more in line with the BF and wont have the FG things for DC during shift event. 

[Roland@pcmtec]

Territory should be close to identical to the sedan, but if its a BF it won't have the tables/scalars you mentioned.

[BeerTurbo]

After much testing its come down to a mechanical issue, with the high flow exhaust we are not able to accurately control boost with the standard internal gate.

I have begun the route of fitting an 45mm external wastegate to the car, this should resolve the mechanical flow issues. 

 

 

[Lucky]

Hey Roland just reading the above info I also have a boost spike that happens between gear changes what parameters can be changed to help with this issue, i noticed you mentioned 

Just drop the duty cycle to 0% during a shift, that will stop it spiking. 

where would i find this option to adjust I also have a turbo territory it wasn't a problem until the highflow Cat went in ?

[BeerTurbo]

1 minute ago, Lucky said:

Hey Roland just reading the above info I also have a boost spike that happens between gear changes what parameters can be changed to help with this issue, i noticed you mentioned 

Just drop the duty cycle to 0% during a shift, that will stop it spiking. 

where would i find this option to adjust I also have a turbo territory it wasn't a problem until the highflow Cat went in ?

that setting is for a fg based computer, not the bf based computer we have in the territory. i was not able to find a DC on gear-change in my config. 

turbos barras have a known problem where as you fit a higher flow exhaust, the turbo works to efficiently and the size of the stock wastgate is not generally large enough to vent boost at higher pressures/better exhausts.

what sort of boost spike are you talking about? 

 

 

[Lucky]

that would explain why i couldnt find them then, around 3-4 PSI spike  when it changes gear in the higher rpm less in lower range all depending on how hard the foots on the pedal. the rear turbo housing is still stock so might be time to get that ported to assist with some venting

[BeerTurbo]

On 8/9/2019 at 10:27 AM, Roland@pcmtec said:

Which strategy and what version of the editor do you have? BF does not have these tables I believe from memory.

Hi Rolland,

Over the last year or so, did you guys find a way to add those FG turbocharger settings into a Bf/Territory series ECM? 

 

auF2714 - Calibrateable wastegate duty cycle when gear change is in progress.

auF3002 - Change in spark adder to waste gate duty cycle.

[Roland@pcmtec]

2 hours ago, BeerTurbo said:

Hi Rolland,

Over the last year or so, did you guys find a way to add those FG turbocharger settings into a Bf/Territory series ECM? 

auF2714 - Calibrateable wastegate duty cycle when gear change is in progress.

auF3002 - Change in spark adder to waste gate duty cycle.

It isn't that they aren't mapped rather it is they do not exist at all. They were new features added by Ford. It would be a huge job to try and add new code to the old calibrations, so it is not something that will ever happen unfortunately.