Timing being added to borderline table?

[MemeMachine]

Hey guys,

Trying to chase down a bit of an issue with timing being added. I've got an NA+T greentop, running it rather rich with pulled timing so I don't blow it all up.

Just wondering if anyone could direct me to what would be adding so much timing particularly at about 1.2 load (see below) but also on the way there. 

As far as I'm aware I've zero'd out all spark adders and multipliers, though I feel like I am missing one...

Below is also an example of the timing being ran at a particular point in the datalog vs my borderline (despite it saying that borderline table is spark source).

Attached also is my tune.

Cheers for any help in advance

30-11 tune.tec

[Puffwagon]

Put auF0220 back to stock. This table should not be zero'd out. Old literature suggested halving it but imo that is still not a good idea and doesn't work very well unless on E85.

The way that tune file is set up isn't how you should go about tuning. It will be doughy to  drive and have no top end pull.

Leave the MBT map stock, leave all of the corrections stock, then you modify the BLK map to suit the timing curve that it outputs.

If you are worried about detonation, get a set of knock ears for starters, when you start to tune it you should remove 4 degrees from the whole BLK map and start with a low boost setting, eg: 5psi.

[MemeMachine]

Alright cheers, set it back to stock.

As for the MBT I had that stock at the time of that run, I only changed that recently to match BLK but haven't run it yet.

See anything else that could influence the added timing?

[MemeMachine]

18 minutes ago, Puffwagon said:

Put auF0220 back to stock. This table should not be zero'd out. Old literature suggested halving it but imo that is still not a good idea and doesn't work very well unless on E85.

The way that tune file is set up isn't how you should go about tuning. It will be doughy to  drive and have no top end pull.

Leave the MBT map stock, leave all of the corrections stock, then you modify the BLK map to suit the timing curve that it outputs.

If you are worried about detonation, get a set of knock ears for starters, when you start to tune it you should remove 4 degrees from the whole BLK map and start with a low boost setting, eg: 5psi.

Ill give it a go tuning to corrections cheers

 

[Puffwagon]

Yeah man, I would. The car is already tuned, you just have to adjust the fuel and timing to suit your engine specs and boost level.

Not sure if you have some but a set of knock ears is mandatory for tuning ignition timing on a barra when you're learning to tune. It takes stuff all to break a ring land and it's cheaper to buy knock ears than another engine these days.

[MemeMachine]

Just now, Puffwagon said:

Yeah man, I would. The car is already tuned, you just have to adjust the fuel and timing to suit your engine specs and boost level.

Not sure if you have some but a set of knock ears is mandatory for tuning ignition timing on a barra when you're learning to tune. It takes stuff all to break a ring land and it's cheaper to buy knock ears than another engine these days.

Yeah cheers man I'll give it a go. So you reckon I'd have some success just taking the richening up base fuel and retarding entire na blk table by 4 degrees to start? 

I do have a set of bootleg knock ears that I'll run on it. They're not great but I can hear any knock so I'll just keep them on it.

[Puffwagon]

If you can hear the engine when it starts to knock then that's fine. If you do a complete tune file restructure then just sneak up on the rpm and boost so you know it has the right timing numbers and fuel etc. Don't forget the tmap settings etc for the turbo side of things.

You don't want a NA BLK table in there, it will have way too much timing in it. Use a BF turbo tune for all of your timing tables and corrections as it will already be set up for a turbo. Take the 4 degrees timing out of that to account for the NA engine and work your way back up to where it's happy. If it is knocking just take more out of it obviously. The F6 BLK map wont exactly line up with what your engine wants so some parts will need more or less taken out of it.

If the injectors are stock and you're starting at 5psi then you can just put 0.8 lambda into the lower couple of lines in the base fuel table and that will sort that part of it. You need to get the fuel in there earlier based on the TPS so you need to change that too. It is auF0523 and you can start by halving it.

This will just be a base map and will need further fine tuning. I see that you're starting with an NA Ba file, I'll attach a stock BF turbo file so you can copy tables out of it.

HACCDK3 Stock BF turbo F6 manual.tec

[Roland@pcmtec]

Definitely don't zero out auF0220 in the upper end. Zeroing it out in the low temps is ok when dialling it in if you are unsure how much timing it can take but you will want to leave the high IAT adder in for hot days. Just be aware when you are tuning it how hot your IATs are as if you tune it on a hot day when everything is heat soaked, in the middle of winter it is obviously going to run more timing, so make sure you take this into account.

[Puffwagon]

Yep pretty sure I said the same thing to someone the other day. Do a run and then let the IC cool back down to 25 to 30c before readjusting the timing.

[Puffwagon]

Also it's not just for the hot days, when you start cranking up the boost you will see a significant intake temp rise just over the course of a single 4th gear pull, unless you have a massive intercooler.

For the sake of adding an anecdote here, my 1000hp rated plazmaman cooler will go from 30C to 70C going flat out from 1st gear to the end of 4th gear and on the dyno have seen it remove 6 degrees of timing when heat soaked.

[dat111]

38 minutes ago, Puffwagon said:

Also it's not just for the hot days, when you start cranking up the boost you will see a significant intake temp rise just over the course of a single 4th gear pull, unless you have a massive intercooler.

For the sake of adding an anecdote here, my 1000hp rated plazmaman cooler will go from 30C to 70C going flat out from 1st gear to the end of 4th gear and on the dyno have seen it remove 6 degrees of timing when heat soaked.

that is bonkers. how long does it take to cool down after the run?

[Puffwagon]

Not very long, it's a tube and fin cooler so they cool down pretty fast. Probably 30 seconds or less. It will only raise from 30C to 45C with a 4th gear pull on about 38 to 40psi. Lower boost levels aren't anywhere near as bad as that.

[BeerTurbo]

On 12/2/2022 at 1:31 PM, Puffwagon said:

Also it's not just for the hot days, when you start cranking up the boost you will see a significant intake temp rise just over the course of a single 4th gear pull, unless you have a massive intercooler.

For the sake of adding an anecdote here, my 1000hp rated plazmaman cooler will go from 30C to 70C going flat out from 1st gear to the end of 4th gear and on the dyno have seen it remove 6 degrees of timing when heat soaked.

still way way way better than the stock top mount. they would start at 40 sometimes and be over 100 by the time the car changed into 3rd.

Edited December 4, 2022 by BeerTurbo