first timer tuner - N/A bf turbo barra

[dat111]

hey guys, my name is daniel.
i am from the central coast of new south!

i am currently putting all the parts together for a N/A turbo build.
then i thought.. instead of having it blow up on a dyno.. why dont i road tune it myself (plus learning it very fun!)

so the plan is to use everything stock from a B series falcon, besides 7PSi waste gate pressure. 
 

im using a stock gt3582R from a FG F6
stock B b series manifold
stock intercooler an piping (considering buying something slighter larger) 
4 bar fuel reg
xr6T manifold sensor.
stock xr6t exhaust 

my questions here are... 
(i have done limited searching on this)
can i use a stock XR6T tune? > then build an play around with that (people said no i cant, on facebook groups) 
"just give it to a tuner an he will work his magic" - id rather blow it up knowing what i did.. then  guessing somebody elses work"

where is the best place to start in regards to watching videos on PCMtec editing an understanding ?
i have the zf6.. can i get away with out tuning the box, or is it worth tuning
 

my end goal is.. great drivability an id like to get at maximum.. 230 rwkw

 

[Roland@pcmtec]

Xr6t runs less compression. You will blow it up in literally minutes if you use that tune. Na+T needs knock ears to tune it properly as it will be very knock limited. 

Are you planning on purchasing knock ears, a wideband and some method to log fuel pressure? 

The na box will also blow up with any decent torque behind it. 

[dat111]

2 minutes ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

Xr6t runs less compression. You will blow it up in literally minutes if you use that tune. Na+T needs knock ears to tune it properly as it will be very knock limited. 

Are you planning on purchasing knock ears, a wideband and some method to log fuel pressure? 

The na box will also blow up with any decent torque behind it. 

hey mate, yes i will be, im currently doing all my research now, (looking to do it within 6-12 months) 
so basically run the stock tune an then build off that?

ive talked to a few tuners an they have said the ZF6 aren't a bad box (aslong as you dont rape them, an dont leave it in Drive) i drive my car quite sensibly, but i understand what you mean. 

[dat111]

40 minutes ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

Xr6t runs less compression. You will blow it up in literally minutes if you use that tune. Na+T needs knock ears to tune it properly as it will be very knock limited. 

Are you planning on purchasing knock ears, a wideband and some method to log fuel pressure? 

The na box will also blow up with any decent torque behind it. 

or could you recommended a tuner who you know who has done this before?

[Puffwagon]

3 hours ago, dat111 said:

instead of having it blow up on a dyno.. why dont i road tune it myself

 

It wont blow up on the dyno as the operator can keep an eye on things. Even an experienced tuner can't watch everything on the road. A beginner will be flying blind unless they start with an already safely tuned car and start logging it.

 

3 hours ago, dat111 said:

id rather blow it up knowing what i did

 

You won't know what you did but I'll tell you now to save you the effort. It'll have too much timing and will break a ring land and/or snap a rod cos there will be too much boost.

 

31 minutes ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

The na box will also blow up with any decent torque behind it.

 

Yeah nah that wont happen. I've seen first hand a na box take over 400rwkw and obviously all the torque that goes with that, for 18 months before it started slipping.

 

25 minutes ago, dat111 said:

so basically run the stock tune an then build off that?

 

Do that. You'll want to remove about 4 degrees of timing everywhere to start with and when you're logging you'll want to start with a total of 5 degrees at WOT. This should be a safe starting point but you'll need the knock ears to confirm it.

 

35 minutes ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

purchasing knock ears, a wideband and some method to log fuel pressure? 

 

Do that but don't worry about the fuel pressure logging at this stage. A walbro 255 will take car of everything you need for now.

 

3 hours ago, dat111 said:

plus learning it very fun!

 

It might seem like fun now but you're going to have to put literally hundreds of hours into learning how to tune before you get to a reasonable level. You'll be there sitting on the side of the road, sweating your arse out making tuning changes and all the while hoping that you haven't pushed it too far for it to shit the bed on the next logging attempt.

 

2 minutes ago, dat111 said:

or could you recommended a tuner who you know who has done this before?

 

He sure can and you'll save yourself so much work and money you'll be miles ahead. Logging hardware aint cheap you know!

[dat111]

4 minutes ago, Puffwagon said:

 

It wont blow up on the dyno as the operator can keep an eye on things. Even an experienced tuner can't watch everything on the road. A beginner will be flying blind unless they start with an already safely tuned car and start logging it.

 

 

You won't know what you did but I'll tell you now to save you the effort. It'll have too much timing and will break a ring land and/or snap a rod cos there will be too much boost.

 

 

Yeah nah that wont happen. I've seen first hand a na box take over 400rwkw and obviously all the torque that goes with that, for 18 months before it started slipping.

 

 

Do that. You'll want to remove about 4 degrees of timing everywhere to start with and when you're logging you'll want to start with a total of 5 degrees at WOT. This should be a safe starting point but you'll need the knock ears to confirm it.

 

 

Do that but don't worry about the fuel pressure logging at this stage. A walbro 255 will take car of everything you need for now.

 

 

It might seem like fun now but you're going to have to put literally hundreds of hours into learning how to tune before you get to a reasonable level. You'll be there sitting on the side of the road, sweating your arse out making tuning changes and all the while hoping that you haven't pushed it too far for it to shit the bed on the next logging attempt.

 

 

He sure can and you'll save yourself so much work and money you'll be miles ahead. Logging hardware aint cheap you know!

thanks so much for that puff wagon, 

i saw that roland said that the box will sh*t the bed.. ive seen BTR 4 speeds with 400,000km N/A+T's take 270rwkw.. i was thinking that the ZF6 are built even N/A are built a little bit better 

in regards to tuners. ive spoken to a few of them.. some wont tune it "its to much work" or its gonna cost you minimum 2700 
i spoke to 2 tuners who were quite reasonable on the phone , hearing from others.. they have a lousy reputation.
sad thing about the car game. i also want somebody whos going to listen to what i want.. not the fattest figure on a piece of paper. 

in regards to my understanding.. the stock fuel pump is the same used in the turbos? or are they different (i didnt look at part numbers thus far)
they are VERY easy to change) 

this is why i have taken such a long time to prepare an research everything i have 90% of the hardware to do the conversion. id rather over prepare then under prepare. 

[Roland@pcmtec]

You guys might have seen a few boxes last but I've heard first hand of 10s of them not lasting a week. 

They are rated to 450nm of torque. Eg bugger all. 

[Roland@pcmtec]

With the fuel pump you can have return lines pop off, filters block, wiring melt. So regardless of the size it is critical to check fuel pressure on all cars you tune. Once again seen first hand 10s of engines hosed because of simple to find problems if you log the data. 

[Roland@pcmtec]

Everyone will tell you about their magical unicorn motor/box that lasts forever. But they won't be bragging about how they blew up 4 na+T motors in a month before taking it to a tuner (yes I've seen this). 

[dat111]

1 minute ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

Everyone will tell you about their magical unicorn motor/box that lasts forever. But they won't be bragging about how they blew up 4 na+T motors in a month before taking it to a tuner (yes I've seen this). 

thats why i am asking if you could tell me a tuner you feel could help me

[Puffwagon]

1 minute ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

I've heard first hand of 10s of them not lasting a week.

 

Yeah mate it all comes down to how they are treated. I've put over 900awhp and 1500awnm though my stock turbo zf before it slipped but I also treat it as well as it can be. Currently no in gear slippage at 800awhp 😉 In saying that you can't shift it at that power level and obviously will have a much shorter lifespan than usual.

 

2 minutes ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

it is critical to check fuel pressure on all cars you tune

 

Strong disagree. You don't need to log fuel pressure on most lightly modded cars. It'll show up on the wideband if you know what you are looking for.

 

2 minutes ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

Everyone will tell you about their magical unicorn motor/box that lasts forever. But they won't be bragging about how they blew up 4 na+T motors in a month before taking it to a tuner (yes I've seen this). 

 

Yerp. No one wants to share their failures and making power once on a dyno doesn't prove how stout a motor is. Blowing up 4 motors in a month just points to someone not knowing what they are doing. That's not necessarily a limitation of the hardware as they can be tuned to not blow up.

 

20 minutes ago, dat111 said:

this is why i have taken such a long time to prepare an research everything i have 90% of the hardware to do the conversion. id rather over prepare then under prepare. 

 

The box will be ok but if you aren't sympathetic to the parts they do wear out quicker.

It's easy to get it tuned, but not so easy to learn how to tune. If you're going to do it yourself then get the wideband, knock detection system and whatever else you want and get into it.

Make sure you look and understand what each change will accomplish before you make the change. You make a big boost or timing change change and hope for the best, you will end up in trouble.

Don't expect it to be easy but if you tread carefully you should be ok. Hell you might blow it up in the first 5 minutes too 🤷‍♂️

[Roland@pcmtec]

16 minutes ago, dat111 said:

thats why i am asking if you could tell me a tuner you feel could help me

We have a public workshop list here www.pcmtec.com/workshops 

Alternatively send us a ticket with your location and we can recommend someone who has done lots of these swaps if there is anyone near you. 

[Roland@pcmtec]

49 minutes ago, Puffwagon said:

Strong disagree. You don't need to log fuel pressure on most lightly modded cars. It'll show up on the wideband if you know what you are looking for.

Question. How are you confident your wideband is telling you the truth? Do you get it professionally calibrated? 

If you log fuel pressure and your wideband dies due to condensation shock (a lot of shops replace their widebands fortnightly as it's cheap insurance) you'd know immediately before you have a chance of hurting the motor. Widebands die all the time and they usually just read rich/lean and still turn on so unless you have a point of reference you won't know.

Shops like springy performance and Pitlane have fuel pressure senders they can bolt in in less than 10 minutes to almost all cars that come in. A few of them go a step further and even measure the return line flow. 

Monitoring everything all the time means you are aware of problems before you even touch the tune. It saves money and time in the long run and I have to stand by our recommendation that all shops log fuel pressure. This will be part of our training material. 

If you think this is overkill you should see what the OEM logs and measures. They have 100s of sensors all over the motor. Most of the professional calibrators just shake their head at the entire aftermarket industry due to how amateur it is in comparison. 

[Puffwagon]

58 minutes ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

I'm out shopping but will reply later 😁

[Puffwagon]

2 hours ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

Question. How are you confident your wideband is telling you the truth? Do you get it professionally calibrated? 

I'm sure my personal one is good enough to signal a leanout. I use the dyno for tuning 99% of the time nowadays and 6 new ngk sensors turned up last week for the dyno, so at least one of them should be ok 😉

I'm all for logging everything when it's called for, but in the case of someone doing the most basic road tuning ie: sub 250rwkw per this thread, logging fuel pressure is a waste of money imo. If we move the goal posts to shop tuning then it starts a new conversation that is better suited for another thread 😁

[Yamonda]

9 hours ago, dat111 said:

hey guys, my name is daniel.
i am from the central coast of new south!

i am currently putting all the parts together for a N/A turbo build.
then i thought.. instead of having it blow up on a dyno.. why dont i road tune it myself (plus learning it very fun!)

so the plan is to use everything stock from a B series falcon, besides 7PSi waste gate pressure. 
 

im using a stock gt3582R from a FG F6
stock B b series manifold
stock intercooler an piping (considering buying something slighter larger) 
4 bar fuel reg
xr6T manifold sensor.
stock xr6t exhaust 

my questions here are... 
(i have done limited searching on this)
can i use a stock XR6T tune? > then build an play around with that (people said no i cant, on facebook groups) 
"just give it to a tuner an he will work his magic" - id rather blow it up knowing what i did.. then  guessing somebody elses work"

where is the best place to start in regards to watching videos on PCMtec editing an understanding ?
i have the zf6.. can i get away with out tuning the box, or is it worth tuning
 

my end goal is.. great drivability an id like to get at maximum.. 230 rwkw

 

Hey mate, 

I'm in Sydney, I've done a few NA/T conversions and have a decent idea of what to do, PM me if you want some help, i have a portable wideband and knock ears ready to go, I've just been road tuning them, obviously a dyno it better but for the on the budget builds I've done, getting them good on the street and leaving them a bit rich and a bit retarded they last and go pretty well. Heat soak will be a issue will the stock cooler

[jpm600]

Hi Daniel, in my opinion, one of the limitation in tuning your NA+T with a stock xr6t tune is that the na PCM cant control boost. This means you can only boost by wastegate pressure. With a 7psi spring, you will have more boost and torque in some areas where it might be more likely to detonate or bend rods(especially with the higher compression NA motor)

I think the boost control in the PCM is fantastic and it is used in the factory calibration to limit boost and torque in situations that might cause damage. Eg:

- Intercooler heat soak- more likely detonation 

-Before WOT shifts to reduce load on transmission.

You can compensate with more retarded timing, other torque reductions on shifts, but you might find the situation where you couldnt compensate enough and damage something.

If i was doing an NA+T build, i would still want a turbo PCM, engine harness and boost solenoid, but it adds more dollars.  Then, I think you could use the stock 5psi spring, stock fuel pump(or walbro 255lph), stock xr6t tune and just retard timing a few degrees to allow for higher compression motor.

But that will probably only get you about ~200rwkw or less.... then you start adding boost and timing in areas that will let your transmission survive and listen for detonation.

If that sounds like fun... Do it! If not, take it to a tuner. 

So far.... i find it fun(probaby 'cause i havent blown my motor and transmission....yet)

[dat111]

hey JPM. 
thanks so much for writing back.

i have decided to let a professional handle it, the fella im going to take it to.. he has tuned a few of these things, his going to road tune it. (495)
im currently looking to buying a BA falcon with a 4 speed in it.. i cant come to blow up the BF if it comes to that.. (if it was to happen, back to the drawing board MKII BF lpg motor with valve springs an E85)

i have picked up some 550cc injectors for 50 bucks (to be flow tested) if they are shit ill just bin them. 
regards to the ECU,wiring harness an boost controller. i 100% agree with you an see where your coming from. the stupid money people want for that stuff. isnt worth it (i seen a guy selling a harness/ECU for 1300)
im also currently looking at a bigger intercooler over stock > this build will no doubt blow out of budget but hay why the hell not lol.
7psi is the number i look at, i will be using a boostT to wind up the boost an the lock it off, once we are there. 
 

[Kayesem]

On 3/23/2021 at 12:46 AM, jpm600 said:

...With a 7psi spring, you will have more boost and torque in some areas where it might be more likely to detonate or bend rods(especially with the higher compression NA motor)...

Doesn't a turbo flapper mod compensate / correct for this by smoothing out the boost and ironing out random peaks? Short of that, if it's knocking anywhere in the range, isn't that something you can just tune out by pulling timing? 
 

On 3/23/2021 at 7:11 AM, dat111 said:

...i have picked up some 550cc injectors for 50 bucks (to be flow tested) if they are shit ill just bin them...
 

Many people run factory NA injectors (and fuel pump) at the same rwkw levels you are chasing without any problems. Also many guys run 7 - 9 pounds no problems. I've seen people complete the conversion, but then be unable to start and run properly with the 4 bar map sensor installed. They had to re-fit the stock one and cruise to a tune shop.

I must say I'm disappointed to see an enthusiastic guy willing to learn and with a solid 6 - 12 months to apply to researching, parts / tools collecting etc. join up and ask for advice, only to almost immediately bail out and choose the 'get someone else to do it' path. It's discouraging that this whole scene seems riddled with impossibly steep learning curves and rocket science level equipment.

Is it really that hard to install and monitor a wide band + knock sensor + fuel pressure + timing and whatever else?

If 12 months of solid research is not enough, why is there any pretence at all to cater for the 'enthusiast' ? This whole thing is made to seem out of reach for all, except those already working with dynos in workshops with decades of prior experience and Space-X level budgets.

[jpm600]

1 hour ago, Kayesem said:

It's discouraging that this whole scene seems riddled with impossibly steep learning curves and rocket science level equipment.

Funny that you quoted my post to say "the whole scene" is riddled with impossible steep learning curves and rocket science level equipment. 

I only bought a territory turbo 6 months ago and only started learning pcmtec since then- with an incredible amount of help from the people on this forum and especially  @Roland@pcmtec. 

I think it is important that people know that there is a risk when tuning yourself without "years of experience a dyno and space x budgets".  There's plenty of risk taken by some dyno tuners too - turning off lots of the factory protection features because they dont think its needed.

I am loving playing with my own tune and im ok with swapping in a NA long motor if i push too far and blow my turbo motor.

Anyway, i dont think anyone was trying to discourage- just hopefully make sure he knows what he's in for, before he is lot of money in and potentially struggling to get the result he wanted.

1 hour ago, Kayesem said:

Doesn't a turbo flapper mod compensate / correct for this by smoothing out the boost and ironing out random peaks?

I would say no it doesnt, a flapper mod isnt needed at 7psi as the waste can flow enough at that power and boost level. The factory turbo boost table also ramps boost down close to redline to protect the transmission on full power wide open throttle shifts. With a NA trans and only wastegate boost control at 7psi... it should last, depending on how you drive it.

Yes 7psi should be fine on a stock na motor and yes some people run 10psi and its fine.... until it isnt.

1 hour ago, Kayesem said:

Short of that, if it's knocking anywhere in the range, isn't that something you can just tune out by pulling timing?

Yep, as long as you tune it at all altitudes and all ambient temperatures and all fuel variations.  Factory knock detection is also helpful in limiting damage, but not infallible. 

Im all for enthusiast tuning and this software is awesome for that, but there is a learning curve and there is some risk(mostly financial) and everyone tolerance of risk is different.

1 hour ago, Kayesem said:

Is it really that hard to install and monitor a wide band + knock sensor + fuel pressure + timing and whatever else?

No, not hard - all of those except wideband is monitored already in the pcmtec datalogger! Wideband needs to be added and most would recommend knock ears to be sure the factory knock sensor is not missing anything.

I think @Puffwagon actually said, start from a stock bf xr6t tune and pull 4 degrees timing(for higher compression motor)then tune from there. Which is a very accessible and sensible starting point.

Anyway, like i said - im still learning and still having fun doing so and im sure plenty of other enthusiasts are too.

Edited March 26, 2021 by jpm600

[Kayesem]

10 minutes ago, jpm600 said:

Funny that you quoted my post to say "the whole scene" is riddled with impossible steep learning curves and rocket science level equipment. 

...

Anyway, like i said - im still learning and still having fun doing so and im sure plenty of other enthusiasts are too.

Thanks for your input man. I don't mean to come crashing into this place all jaded from the outset. It's just that at first I was like oh great, someone else is just getting started and maybe I can learn along with them, but then no, it's too difficult and you'll blow up your engine, your gearbox and your mum's toaster.

Why can't you (the forum as a whole) simply point to a getting started guide and say look, here are the risks, here are the payoffs, here's what you'll need and what it will cost. Once you understand all that and are ready to continue, come back to us when you come up against a specific issue you are struggling with. (?)

Maybe that's already in place and i've overlooked it? I already asked @Roland@pcmtec for a getting started guide (on youtube) and he ghosted me after that. I get that videos are not the main focus around here at the moment, but some more effort on that front would go a very long way towards welcoming newcomers to the scene. 

[Bill]

5 hours ago, Kayesem said:

Why can't you (the forum as a whole) simply point to a getting started guide and say look, here are the risks, here are the payoffs, here's what you'll need and what it will cost. Once you understand all that and are ready to continue, come back to us when you come up against a specific issue you are struggling with. (?)

Maybe that's already in place and I've overlooked it? I already asked @Roland@pcmtec for a getting started guide (on YouTube) and he ghosted me after that. I get that videos are not the main focus around here at the moment, but some more effort on that front would go a very long way towards welcoming newcomers to the scene.

There's plenty of help in the forum. You just need to search posts, read up, learn & then ask questions.

As for setup costs, they will vary depending on what you're prepared to spend on the equipment required and what level of training you may want before jumping in & buying any tuning software, as everyone's budget is different. This is something each individual needs to research. You need to ask yourself.....what are my end goals, time frame for completion, what is my budget, what is my risk, do I have an alternate vehicle & funds should something go wrong, is road tuning feasible or not, am I better off paying someone?

The web is also a good source of information. Here's a few links I found to both free & paid tuning courses in just a few minutes. The tuning software used may be different, but it's the principles of tuning that are what is required

https://www.hpacademy.com/technical-articles/tuning-tools/

https://www.hpacademy.com/technical-articles/explained-pre-tuning-essentials-part-1/

https://www.hpacademy.com/technical-articles/explained-pre-tuning-essentials-part-2/

https://www.hpacademy.com/courses/

https://www.hpacademy.com/hpa-starter-package

Once you've been through all the HP Academy material, @Roland@pcmtec has mentioned in forum posts, training materials being worked on by a tuner using PCMtec tuning software.....it might be completed & available if you still need more specific training on the PCMtec product & tuning. I'm sure I've also seen references to other sources of information & training within forum posts.

 

[Puffwagon]

Another way of learning how to tune is to download a bunch of aftermarket ecu manuals and have a read.

I learnt a fair bit from the haltech e11v2 manual back in the day.

[Roland@pcmtec]

8 hours ago, Kayesem said:

Why can't you (the forum as a whole) simply point to a getting started guide and say look, here are the risks, here are the payoffs, here's what you'll need and what aybe that's already in place and i've overlooked it? I already asked @Roland@pcmtec for a getting started guide (on youtube) and he ghosted me after that. I get that videos are not the main focus around here at the moment, but some more effort on that front would go a very long way towards welcoming newcomers to the scene. 

Because it's really difficult and not a sustainable business to write software AND provide tuning training. We have paid support you can do through DSR performance however this requires you already have a dyno and test equipment. 

90% of our revenue comes from workshops and hence they have the be our core focus. 

The reason the enthusiast product exists is because I personally was in the same position back in 2016, I tried to buy SCT and was told I had to own a dyno and shop to buy it. So here we are. 

Ironically now that we are here I completely understand why they take that stance and it is because supporting DIY is a great way to burn yourself out when 100s (literally 100s) of people PM your personal accounts asking for help every single day of the week. Mostly of it is out of hours and on weekends. For the first year or so I used to reply, now I've turned off all messengers and notifications and don't really reply to anyone at all as people took advantage of it.

I still want to leave the avenue open for people who were like myself (eg you guys), but we can't hand hold DIY users for a $300 product. For $3k then it is something we can afford to do and that is what funds writing all the HOWTO guides and R&D. The enthusiast users get this all for free. 

We regularly get asked by workshops to remove the enthusiast product and make the forums private. We don't plan to do this but you have to see it from our (and their) perspective. 

To date we have sold ~$40k of copies of the enthusiast product in 3 years. We have 7 employees, as you can see the enthusiast product is a money losing business, we only do it to give back to the community. There is absolutely no way we can afford to produce training material as well.

[Kayesem]

OK, thanks guys, much appreciated. Makes a bit more sense now.

So HPA provides non-specific general EFI training but no software or hardware. Haltech provides a little bit of everything. PCMtec provides software but not a lot of training or support, except for workshops and people getting in at the 3k level. Or at least, any training / guides etc. are funded by the income from higher levels.

Is there more to the workshop's perspective other than wanting to maintain a monopoly on tuning?

My current vehicle had a dyno tune done already before I bought it. Is it a viable learning path to study the differences between a factory map vs the modified map? 

[Puffwagon]

1 hour ago, Kayesem said:

PCMtec provides software but not a lot of training or support, except for workshops and people getting in at the 3k level. Or at least, any training / guides etc. are funded by the income from higher levels.

 

There are no training guides for workshop edition owners.

For the most part they already know how to tune so don't need training.

Support is generally limited to technical issues, although there have been numerous write-ups in the forum that are extremely helpful and would be a reason shops want it kept private.

If you want to learn how to tune you need to understand how everything works and that's years of mechanical knowledge right there.

Then there is the software specific side of it which is fairly easy to work out when you've done it before.

If your car is already tuned then start by understanding the boost control. Turn it down rather than up and see how the tables interact with each other and the vehicle. There is a write-up that explains boost control so there's that.

Perhaps before that, do plenty of road logging and see what the car is doing.

There is no shortcut to the years of experience you need to understand and apply tuning in a proper manner.

Get reading mate, do plenty of logging, make small changes so nothing goes bang and be prepared to spend a lot of time learning.

You can also post a question on the forum if you want to know something specific, like what does such and such parameter do.

So yerp there it is, ya might pick it up quick and it might go to the too hard basket. Good luck 😁

[Roland@pcmtec]

2 hours ago, Kayesem said:

Is there more to the workshop's perspective other than wanting to maintain a monopoly on tuning?

I'll give you an example. You spend 1mil buying a workshop. Then you spend 500k on a dyno, sound proofing, external exhaust, tools and then drop 300k a year on maintenance and employees. 

You then buy a brand new test car and spend months of R&D tuning it, taking it to the track, blowing the motor after testing the limits. More tuning and R&D until you know how far you can push the limit of the motor. Maybe a few hundred k of R&D and you start charging 1.5k for tunes. This Includes mechanical inspection and all the prior knowledge you learnt. 

Joe blow down the road who has invested less than 1k into learning to tune then sucks your tune out and flashes it into his mates car and it luckily works without blowing anything up. Now Joe blow thinks he knows what he is doing and starts selling this tune with minor tweaks for $1k to people who don't know any better. 

How do you think the workshop owner feels? 

If the software is accessible to anyone it drops the quality of the industry as people who should not be tuning are doing it. It means a lot of customers end up paying 3 or 4x as they slowly realise you get what you pay for. 

On the flip side the software being accessible to anyone means it is easier to learn and end up becoming a workshop or leading tuner. 

I can see both perspectives as most of the workshops invest a huge amount of time and money into getting where they are. But I also remember how frustrating it was not being able to have any access when I wanted to learn. 

[Roland@pcmtec]

Also we have invested a large amount of money into producing some training material and a tuning guide which will have an accompanying in person training session available in VIC which we hope will be available this year. This has taken us years to find someone capable of doing this which also has the availability to deliver on it. It is very hard to find people who can do this job and are willing to take it on. The reason we haven't had anything available to date is not from lack of trying, we just literally could not find anyone to hire to develop it. 

[Kayesem]

18 minutes ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

Also we have invested a large amount of money into producing some training material and a tuning guide which will have an accompanying in person training session available in VIC which we hope will be available this year. This has taken us years to find someone capable of doing this which also has the availability to deliver on it. It is very hard to find people who can do this job and are willing to take it on. The reason we haven't had anything available to date is not from lack of trying, we just literally could not find anyone to hire to develop it. 

That's interesting. Assuming that most shops are already trained, I guess the guide would be aimed at beginners / intermediates?

Will it be in groups or 1 on 1? Will the guide / material be made available to enthusiasts?

[jpm600]

2 hours ago, Kayesem said:

My current vehicle had a dyno tune done already before I bought it. Is it a viable learning path to study the differences between a factory map vs the modified map? 

I think it is a great way to learn

I started with territcompared with FPV f6 and aftermarket 10psi capa generic tune. I since stufied a few different tunes. The compare feature on PCMtec is invaluable for insights into the changes made.

If you get the professional level software(which is what i got), then you can generate stock tunes from model catch codes to compare changes from stock and look a different factory tunes like F6 or fg xr6 sprint etc.

 

[Roland@pcmtec]

20 minutes ago, Kayesem said:

That's interesting. Assuming that most shops are already trained, I guess the guide would be aimed at beginners / intermediates?

Will it be in groups or 1 on 1? Will the guide / material be made available to enthusiasts?

It will be designed to give you all the information to tune a lightly modified Xr6t to 300rwkw including the ZF6HP26. This includes all mechanical steps and check lists. 

Beginner/intermediate level however it will still have info that might be new for even experienced workshops. 

It will be a document that can be purchased through the editor. In person training will be in groups and a done seperately. 

We haven't decided on pricing or the delivery method exactly yet as the the material is only half way done. 

[Kayesem]

1 hour ago, jpm600 said:

I think it is a great way to learn

I started with territcompared with FPV f6 and aftermarket 10psi capa generic tune. I since stufied a few different tunes. The compare feature on PCMtec is invaluable for insights into the changes made.

If you get the professional level software(which is what i got), then you can generate stock tunes from model catch codes to compare changes from stock and look a different factory tunes like F6 or fg xr6 sprint etc.

 

That's great, thanks man. I am considering supercharging in order to retain LPG which takes up space on the exhaust side.

1 hour ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

It will be designed to give you all the information to tune a lightly modified Xr6t to 300rwkw including the ZF6HP26. This includes all mechanical steps and check lists. 

Beginner/intermediate level however it will still have info that might be new for even experienced workshops. 

It will be a document that can be purchased through the editor. In person training will be in groups and a done seperately. 

We haven't decided on pricing or the delivery method exactly yet as the the material is only half way done. 

Sounds good, hope it turns out well. I've noticed quite a few complaints about the lack of BTR 4 speed support from Haltech, they say there is just not enough demand to justify it. I would prefer a T56 anyway.

Are there big differences between the NA and boosted versions of the ZF? Will it be easy for someone to apply the course material to a boost converted NA model?

[dat111]

update: i have secured a 182K bf MKI with a BTR service history (box has been rebuilt an serviced every 10k with oil filter was done) (payed 1000 bucks for it) 
the zf BF is now my daily.

has anybody dealth with COREtuned at newcastle or Euro Prestige in vineyard?
they seem to be the guys ill be looking at using

[Roland@pcmtec]

There is a list of workshops here if that helps. I don't believe either of the ones listed use our workshop package. 

https://www.pcmtec.com/workshops

 

[jpm600]

13 hours ago, dat111 said:

update: i have secured a 182K bf MKI with a BTR service history (box has been rebuilt an serviced every 10k with oil filter was done) (payed 1000 bucks for it) 
the zf BF is now my daily.

has anybody dealth with COREtuned at newcastle or Euro Prestige in vineyard?
they seem to be the guys ill be looking at using

Hey Daniel,

If the bf mk1 is a toy for playing with, then i'd go with your initial plan of stock turbo setup, 7psi wastegate spring, wideband O2 sensor, stock xr6t tune on your na pcm and start playing(ie road tuning). You can datalog the stock knock sensors if you are road tuning without knock ears, but they might miss minor knocks or might retard due to false knock, but its a starting point.

 If you blow gearbox or engine then its not a huge expense, but the toy is off the road for while.

 

[dat111]

hey guys! 
thought id revive my dead thread on this topic,
so sticking to the original plan  

car has 315km on it. i wont be tuning it. 
3 - 5psi adjusting with a boost Tee 
stock everything else
stock fuel set up (new pump, an 4 bar reg)
my biggest concern is the valve springs an gearbox (flares when cold between 3-4 very slightly, besides that its fine) 


 

[codac]

Thought I'd add my two cents. My current ongoing project is a turbo converted NA BF motor out of a territory which has been rebuilt. The motor is bone stock except for a set of billet oil pump gears. It runs a GTX3582 @ 7psi externally gated through a 3 inch Plazmaman intake and 1000hp intercooler. I've tuned stock turbos on a couple motors and can definitely vouch for running a larger turbo on these NA motors as boost hits later and the internals see less low rpm torque which is a killer. To start tuning I removed 4 degrees from a turbo BLK table and zeroed spark adders for lambda, ECT and IAT. This timing proved knock free under all conditions with a stock base fuel table for my setup, mind you my IAT sits under 25 pretty much indefinitely. The car is still quick and responsive and I've added timing in areas where I want it. I haven't pushed it to knock at all on BP98 yet and I don't want to so my plan is to get it on E85 and push it to limit. Worse case scenario, rod throws and its off the road for a few days and $300 is spent on another one. I'd love to hear from people what they are running on these NA motors. Cheers!

[dat111]

the NA BLK map. ive found is the safest for my car. 

lowered the timing in where it needs to be lowered. 
it has displayed 1.5 degrees upto 5k.  with around 9psi peak an dropping off to about 6.5psi. in the upper levels 

[codac]

That looks good mate however I'd personally consider running less timing from the positive pressure load cells prior to 2500rpm to be safe, unless you can use knock ears to verify. You will still be able to hit those load cells on the street, for example wide throttle up a steep hill in a higher gear. This depends on turbo size too and the rest of the spark. I still manage to hit +1 load with the GTX3582 on moderate throttle uphill doing low rpm. Hence my timing is all extrapolated outside of most common load x rpm combinations.

Edited November 1, 2022 by codac
Missed phrase

[codac]

Also just curious, what is your knock avg pulling then. A commanded spark of 1.5 with 7 in the BLK is quite a big jump. I run 6 and even with 0.5 knock average will only see it get at low as 4.5 when ECT BLK adder pulls a bit of timing. Might be due to the fact my lambda table is zeroed. Just ranting 😄 

[Bill]

11 minutes ago, codac said:

That looks good mate however I'd personally consider running less timing from the positive pressure load cells prior to 2500rpm to be safe, unless you can use knock ears to verify. You will still be able to hit those load cells on the street, for example wide throttle up a steep hill in a higher gear. This depends on turbo size too and the rest of the spark. I still manage to hit +1 load with the GTX3582 on moderate throttle uphill doing low rpm. Hence my timing is all extrapolated outside of most common load x rpm combinations.

@dat111 you've changed to a 3576 so this is more likely to happen with boost coming on earlier

[dat111]

i guess it comes down to, ive got no reason to go up a hill at full throttle, ive had luck with what im doing an its working.. so ill just keep rolling with it  just stupid noisy suspension...  killing me -.- 

[Bill]

5 minutes ago, dat111 said:

just stupid noisy suspension...  killing me -.- 

You'd have near replaced everything suspension related. Turn the volume up & it'll go away 🤣

[Roland@pcmtec]

6 hours ago, dat111 said:

i guess it comes down to, ive got no reason to go up a hill at full throttle, ive had luck with what im doing an its working.. so ill just keep rolling with it  just stupid noisy suspension...  killing me -.- 

Try running 0 wastegate duty cycle and see what cells you hit. I bet it knocks. 

Same with doing a WOT run from 1500 rpm in 6th gear. 

This is not how you should tune spark tables. 

[Puffwagon]

17 minutes ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

This is not how you should tune spark tables

Let's take it one step further and say you shouldn't even touch an ignition map, unless you either have the experience to know what it needs or are using knock detection equipment.

Now where's a big stick and a dead horse?

[codac]

As Roland said, it's also very easy to hit high load on small turbos without much throttle input, cruising hills with moderate throttle in higher gears will do it. If you look at the ignition maps on factory turbo configurations you will notice low (<5 degrees) to negative timing cells on the far bottom left of the BLK table (positive pressure at low rpm). You won't know if it's safe without knock ears until the damage is already done. Knock will damage pistons and bend rods over time until a critical point is reached. My factory BF knock pulls timing on false knock all the time. Factory knock retard should only serve in an emergency and never as a tuning tool. Admittedly, for tuning your first NA motor it's difficult to know what timing to put where but as a generally consensus I think pulling 4 degrees from a turbo map serves effectively as a foundation, although I can only comment on my personal experience. Safe tuning!

Edited November 1, 2022 by codac

[dat111]

Thanks dudes👌