FG Mk2 XR6T - ZF Auto Flaring

[Stelz87]

Hi, I'd like some friendly advice regarding my ZF please. It is currently flaring between gear changes after a tune was done. I was told the ZF was returned to stock temporarily for whatever reason and to drive it for a couple hundred kilometers so it can learn again etc (previously tuned by a different workshop with torque limiter removed apparently).. Few times already I've received trans and dtc failure messages and then it doesn't change gears at all until you turn it off/on again.

What is the best cause of action?

As a side question. Is there such a thing as the mk2 ECU's being "buggy" compared to the rest? Many thanks

Edited August 17, 2020 by Stelz87

[Stelz87]

I'm not a tuner unfortunately. Just seeking advise if what I'm being told is true. I have an OBD reader if that's what you mean?

 

Edited August 17, 2020 by Stelz87

[Roland@pcmtec]

ZF Adaptive takes at least 200km to fully learn the clutch pack wear so that seems like a reasonable request. Nothing wrong with the mk2 PCMs.

As above, take it to a professional to diagnose properly

www.pcmtec.com/workshops

[Stelz87]

22 minutes ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

ZF Adaptive takes at least 200km to fully learn the clutch pack wear so that seems like a reasonable request. Nothing wrong with the mk2 PCMs.

As above, take it to a professional to diagnose properly

www.pcmtec.com/workshops

So the transmission and dtc failure messages are normal during this process?

This is from one of your workshops. Will try to get the error codes shortly.

[Roland@pcmtec]

What are the error codes? They might be pending and normal depending on what was done. 

Any reason you haven't called the workshop? It is a bit hard to guess without all the information. 

[Stelz87]

No error codes appeared on the scan unfortunately which is odd..

I haven't said anything yet as I was told to drive for a few hundred kilometers and was seeking advise to see if this is all normal before I open my mouth.

[Roland@pcmtec]

12 hours ago, Stelz87 said:

No error codes appeared on the scan unfortunately which is odd..

I haven't said anything yet as I was told to drive for a few hundred kilometers and was seeking advise to see if this is all normal before I open my mouth.

"I've received trans and dtc failure messages"

Where did you see that if there are no DTC codes?

[Stelz87]

9 hours ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

"I've received trans and dtc failure messages"

Where did you see that if there are no DTC codes?

On the dash?

[Puffwagon]

I'd suggest doing the gentle driving and let us know how the trans is behaving afterwards.

I recently tried some different trans tuning and was getting a slight flare between shifts when driving super gently. I just went back to my previous tune and it was fine again.

I might try the changes again and give it some time to adapt.

[Stelz87]

I have been driving for a few days now and have so far done 65-70km. The transmission is starting to shift normal with the small hiccup here and there. The same error messages appeared yesterday though..

Waiting on the workshop to get back to me.

[Stelz87]

Btw, is there a write up for operating the functions on the steering wheel? I have two tunes and launch assist.

[Roland@pcmtec]

Has the gearbox been out before? I have seen a few instances of TCM pins backing loose out of the plug after it has been removed causing disconnections randomly, this drops the canbus to the TCM and puts the car in a limp mode temporarily. You usually see comms fail or comms loss on the dash and then it magically fixes itself.

[Roland@pcmtec]

Just now, Stelz87 said:

Btw, is there a write up for operating the functions on the steering wheel? I have two tunes and launch assist.

 

[Stelz87]

2 minutes ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

Has the gearbox been out before? I have seen a few instances of TCM pins backing loose out of the plug after it has been removed causing disconnections randomly, this drops the canbus to the TCM and puts the car in a limp mode temporarily. You usually see comms fail or comms loss on the dash and then it magically fixes itself.

Yes although no issues prior to tune. On odd occasion will receive error message of vehicle not in park but I've learned to live with it.

[Stelz87]

Can I run the 98 tune while there is a full tank of E85?

[Puffwagon]

Haha think about it this way, why pay for an e85 tune if you can just run 98 octane and it'll be fine?!

But in all seriousness... you probably can but it's not advisable. The e85 tune will have about 30% more fuel so it will be too rich. The e85 tune will have (should have) too much timing in it also, so any attempt at brisk acceleration or boost, could and probably would make it knock. If you tried to floor it then it would likely misfire and eventually foul the plugs. Misfiring and knock under load are a very bad combination to have.

The O2 sensor will take over when various conditions are met and you could probably drive around gently like that if you had to. Basically 20% throttle and nothing else.

There is a fairly strong possibility that it wouldn't be able to start or run until the O2 sensor takes over (roughly 40 seconds from startup), in which case the plugs will be fouled and will need drying out, cleaning or replacing.

So the proper answer is no, but there are things you can do, when you know how and why things do what they do.

Google "fuel stoich" and you should find some useful reading material.

[Stelz87]

Thank you. You've been very helpful.

[Stelz87]

Btw I've done over 120km since the trans issue. Issue eliminated. Thanks again.

[Puffwagon]

That's great that it has come good for you 😁

[Romulus]

There should be no error after the trans tune, sounds like someone is having a lend. Did you say you had a tune or a trans rebuild? Typically, a rebuilt trans that's been slipping will require up to 1500kms of gentle driving to reset the adaptive learning. A reflash does not reset the adaptive learning, contrary to what the software might indicate.

[Puffwagon]

1 hour ago, Romulus said:

A reflash does not reset the adaptive learning, contrary to what the software might indicate.

The software doesn't indicate that, although on first impressions it looks like it does. There was a post where this was clarified but i cbf finding it.

Here's the post.

[Puffwagon]

What is that supposed to mean?

[Puffwagon]

Roland explained it differently in the thread that I linked. I'm not gonna bother quoting a bunch of stuff. Have a look and tell me what your thoughts are.

[Puffwagon]

If clicking the adaptive reset clears the box learning after flashing, it would have issues until it re-learned the clutch wear wouldn't it?

 

 

[Puffwagon]

I feel like I'm missing something here. I have flashed both pcm and tcm just a couple of days ago with the reset adaptive flag checked (it's always checked and has been flashed dozens of times), and the car is driving fine with no perceivable difference in the shifts and operation, unless of course a transmission function has been updated.

I haven't changed ZF03182 however and I don't think I will, unless I want to find out first hand if there is a difference between that and the reset adaptive function.

 

There is this...

On 2/27/2019 at 11:20 AM, Roland@pcmtec said:

To disable the long term learning algorithm set ZF03182 to 0

To reset the long term learning set this to 0, start the car and put it in gear. Turn the vehicle off then set the variable back to 1.

Then there is this...

On 2/28/2019 at 6:13 AM, richardpalinkas said:

Can this be done to a standard box also? And would there be any benefit of doing this to a standard transmission?

 

On 2/28/2019 at 8:45 AM, Roland@pcmtec said:

It would drive terribly if you disabled it on a box that had learnt the clutch wear.,

 

[Romulus]

1 hour ago, Whiteford said:

Correct. That's the radio box you can tick/untick. This function does not reset the clutch wear parameters in the trans.

[Romulus]

43 minutes ago, Puffwagon said:

I feel like I'm missing something here. I have flashed both pcm and tcm just a couple of days ago with the reset adaptive flag checked (it's always checked and has been flashed dozens of times), and the car is driving fine with no perceivable difference in the shifts and operation, unless of course a transmission function has been updated.

 

 

I've discussed this with another tuner and we're of the opinion this 'reset adaptive' does not reset the learned wear rate of the gearbox.

[Puffwagon]

Ok thanks for the info gents.

There seems to be some conflicting views on this which don't help matters.

As long as we have the correct info, it doesn't matter where it comes from.

Edited August 22, 2020 by Puffwagon

[Romulus]

Just now, Puffwagon said:

Ok thanks for the info.

There seems to be some conflicting views on this which don't help matters.

As long as we have the correct info, it doesn't matter where it comes from.

If you've had a trans rebuilt (like I have), then I would heed the advice given and that is to do as much stop start driving as possible at low speeds (below 100km/h) and avoid as much WOT and kickdown for at least 500kms. 

I've done 2000k since my trans rebuild with Monsta Torque. I'm using the HAEK4PE trans calibration as in my opinion this is the best ZF calibration out of the FG's for the I6T. I've played with HAER1UB but I've noticed too much banging during upshifts at WOT. It's just not as well behaved as the FG F6 trans calibration.

[Romulus]

5 minutes ago, Whiteford said:

Do you have any data to support this claim? As I have raw data that indicates the KAM (Keep Alive Memory) is cleared using this function. Not opinion.

No RAW data. Only confirmation from having gone from a trans slipping on the 3-4 shift to a rebuilt trans with harsh initial gearshifts. The 'reset' does not do a full reset or memory clear from our observations. Have seen this with other rebuilt transmissions as well. There is a run in procedure that needs to be followed to allow the trans to relearn.

[Romulus]

There was a procedure for the 4 speed ION transmission in the Falcons to reset the transmission after a repair. From memory it required specific gear positions for a set time in P, R, N & D to reset the learning function of the new or reconditioned box. 

 I accept what you say, and this is what the ZF needs, the reset adaptive function does not do this unfortunately.

[Romulus]

1 minute ago, Whiteford said:

Nothing I say will change your mind as you are basing your statement on opinion and not on data.

Yep. And the opinion of one of the best ZF trans builders in the country who's done hundreds of rebuilds. The adaptive reset down not override the necessity to run a trans in after a rebuild. Period.

[Stelz87]

My trans is standard and has never had a rebuild. Why would my tuner have enabled this feature for? While it is ok-ish now, was it necessary?

[Stelz87]

Tuner also mentioned he enabled the torque limiting function as it was previously disabled. Is it necessary?

[BeerTurbo]

tourque limiting is standard during a shift event.

if its off the car can just freely maintain rpms and power between shifts and it would proberly bang into gear harshly. 

[Roland@pcmtec]

1 hour ago, Stelz87 said:

Tuner also mentioned he enabled the torque limiting function as it was previously disabled. Is it necessary?

Without torque limiting enabled a box will destroy itself in no time. It is absolutely required. 

The adaptive reset is done whenever a flash is done (unless you untick the box) so it is normal procedure to do so. The impact it has is fairly variable based on the tune and state of the box hence the highly variable reports you get (eg it does nothing vs it bangs and clunks). 

[Romulus]

1 hour ago, Stelz87 said:

Tuner also mentioned he enabled the torque limiting function as it was previously disabled. Is it necessary?

If the torque limiting was disabled on the previous tune then I'd say your gearbox is probably 80% rooted. The ZF behind a stock I6T wont last with torque management switched off.

[Stelz87]

Interesting.. it seemed fine to me prior to the tune. 

Edited August 22, 2020 by Stelz87

[Romulus]

My stock ZF lasted 20,000kms behind 511rwkw in my G6ET on E85. Sometimes is luck of the draw..........

[BeerTurbo]

On 8/22/2020 at 5:11 PM, Romulus said:

If you've had a trans rebuilt (like I have), then I would heed the advice given and that is to do as much stop start driving as possible at low speeds (below 100km/h) and avoid as much WOT and kickdown for at least 500kms. 

I've done 2000k since my trans rebuild with Monsta Torque. I'm using the HAEK4PE trans calibration as in my opinion this is the best ZF calibration out of the FG's for the I6T. I've played with HAER1UB but I've noticed too much banging during upshifts at WOT. It's just not as well behaved as the FG F6 trans calibration.

can you use the HAEK4PE zf calibration on a B series

[Romulus]

10 hours ago, BeerTurbo said:

can you use the HAEK4PE zf calibration on a B series

No as I believe the PCM hardware is different.

[Roland@pcmtec]

FG and BF are very different, it would go straight into limp mode. 

[BeerTurbo]

I will admit to stupidity because i did try before posting and yes it did go into limp mode. I thought maybe there was another way.

I then took the f6 territory HACH4A5 and moved that config over. got myself ABS and TRC lights on the dash and the gearbox was slipping, so i just went back to std.

 

 

i would love to know how to make it stop clunking, the low speed clunk you get when coasting down to a stop. around 7kmhr it does what i assume is change into first and goes clunk. if anyone wants to share there ZF secrets ill be all ears on that one.

[Romulus]

What's your strategy?

[BeerTurbo]

1 minute ago, Romulus said:

What's your strategy?

HACH4K6 

[Romulus]

11 hours ago, BeerTurbo said:

I will admit to stupidity because i did try before posting and yes it did go into limp mode. I thought maybe there was another way.

I then took the f6 territory HACH4A5 and moved that config over. got myself ABS and TRC lights on the dash and the gearbox was slipping, so i just went back to std.

 

 

i would love to know how to make it stop clunking, the low speed clunk you get when coasting down to a stop. around 7kmhr it does what i assume is change into first and goes clunk. if anyone wants to share there ZF secrets ill be all ears on that one.

You need to compare your file against another file where the 2-1 bump isn't happening and compare any 2-1 shift settings. I'd be looking at shift times, slip times, pressures and the 2-1 shift/lock schedule. The easiest thing to do would to increase the 2-1 shift speed to say 10-15km/h and see if that makes a difference to the bump.

[BeerTurbo]

On 9/6/2020 at 9:14 AM, Romulus said:

You need to compare your file against another file where the 2-1 bump isn't happening and compare any 2-1 shift settings. I'd be looking at shift times, slip times, pressures and the 2-1 shift/lock schedule. The easiest thing to do would to increase the 2-1 shift speed to say 10-15km/h and see if that makes a difference to the bump.

 

On 9/6/2020 at 9:14 AM, Romulus said:

You need to compare your file against another file where the 2-1 bump isn't happening and compare any 2-1 shift settings. I'd be looking at shift times, slip times, pressures and the 2-1 shift/lock schedule. The easiest thing to do would to increase the 2-1 shift speed to say 10-15km/h and see if that makes a difference to the bump.

I copied the fg shift schedule and information that was in the territory map. this made no difference to the lowdown kick into 1st. I may change the speed-gear schedule and see. i think it will remove it because if you manually shift it into 1 once its not moving there is no bump.

every shift has improved, except for a weried spot around 30-45 percent throttle, in the 2-3 shift where it seems to change out of two, let the engine flare up in rpm, before shifting into 3rd.

anyway, i should just proberly pay someone to tune it who knows whats there doing.