Unable to locate injector data.

[KyleBruh]

So I’ve attempted this afternoon to gauge on my car and tune it for it’s setup.

So I’m be run into an issue either going to have to revert back to stock injectors and tune it for stock injectors.

as I have 440cc Bosch 42lb injectors I’ve scaled the forums top to bottom to try find data to just transfer them over to the tables or just find the general data to scale then in is it a long process something me and my mate aren’t actually too familiar with I’ve showed him some files I’ve skimmed over but he says they’re incorrect (I have attached them below as these are all I could find).
 

as I’m currently running at idle 0.7 lambda. Which is what my mate is running at WOT with an lpg block.

and another question my timing table seems out of whack as it’s running 10 deg retard in timing at idle also. Is something going on?

[jpm600]

Hi Kyle,

 

I haven't actually fitted my 42lb injectors yet, so i don't know how accurate this scaling is.  I've just used the official bosch data you have already above and used excel to calc for base pressure.  I do see it is different(leaner) compared with CAPA data for the 42lb injectors, but that might be a mail order tune fudge factor.  obviously once installed you can drive it off boost and watch you fuel trims to get an idea of how accurate.... or even better install wideband and use real data to adjust in real time.

Anyway, Excel sheet attached.

 

Hopefully people with more experience will chime in if i've made stupid mistakes.

 

regards,

Justin

INJECTOR CALCS.xlsx

[KyleBruh]

Appreciate it bro! Worth a try anyway probably just give it a go and datalog it and see how won’t be able to do anything till the weekend so we’ll see

[Roland@pcmtec]

If you haven't already have a read of this thread. Might be of assistance.

 h

[BeerTurbo]

dont forget that table is at 39psi. if you have a turbo fuel regulator the fuel pressure is around 60psi.

the FG f6 uses 440cc injectors, they may not be the same injectors as the ones you have but the data might get you in the ballpark. well close enough to testing's if you took those numbers (assuming u have a turbo fuel reg).

try comparing your injector data against HAEE4V2.

 

 

0.7 is verry rich for a barra at idle, even inside the cold map. outside of the cold map the barra will use the 02 sensor lots and really try to hit 1.0...so your data is way off.

 

 

[KyleBruh]

On 3/11/2021 at 1:30 PM, Roland@pcmtec said:

If you haven't already have a read of this thread. Might be of assistance.

 h

I have had a look at that but it’s a bit far out of my knowledge, bit hard for me to make sense of.

 

2 hours ago, BeerTurbo said:

dont forget that table is at 39psi. if you have a turbo fuel regulator the fuel pressure is around 60psi.

the FG f6 uses 440cc injectors, they may not be the same injectors as the ones you have but the data might get you in the ballpark. well close enough to testing's if you took those numbers (assuming u have a turbo fuel reg).

try comparing your injector data against HAEE4V2.

 

 

0.7 is verry rich for a barra at idle, even inside the cold map. outside of the cold map the barra will use the 02 sensor lots and really try to hit 1.0...so your data is way off.

 

 

 

Yeah I know, it’s super rich, but can’t really seem to find any data for 440cc injectors until now to go from, all I could find was that as I attached above with the wrong base fuel pressure which I’m still yet to try the data that @jpm600has provided regarding 440cc injectors @58psi fuel pressure and yes I have been informed by a friend that I could use those as a reference just haven’t had the time to try it out.

 

It’s a factory turbo ba ute (unfortunately btr) but apparently with all of my mods I could achieve around the 400-450hp mark.

[Puffwagon]

21 hours ago, KyleBruh said:

I have had a look at that but it’s a bit far out of my knowledge, bit hard for me to make sense of.

 

Well we all start somewhere don't we...

 

This is a simple way of looking at it;

 

Think of the slope numbers as how big the ecu thinks the injector is. For the sake of making it easy, lets assume both slopes are the same number. If you make them 100 the ecu will run an afr of 14.7 for example. It wont actually be that afr but lets just say it is.

If we make the slope number smaller, the ecu thinks the injector is smaller and will open the injector for longer which will run richer.

So there is one way of thinking about how the size of the slopes work.

The reason there are 2 slopes, hi and lo, is because the injector doesn't flow a linear amount of fuel when it is only open for a short amount of time. Lets just say it flows 1mL when it is open for 1ms. It would make sense that it would flow 2mL for 2 ms and 10mL for 10ms right? The injector doesn't actually flow like that. It is kinda wonky and the first 1ms to 2ms doesn't flow the same, so that area gets a low slope number. The reason it's called the low slope isn't because the number is smaller, it's because it is the start of the slope.

Ideally we would have just one slope number but until we have injectors that flow the same from start to finish we have to break them up (get it?!? break point?!?) so we get the right amount of fuel at idle as well as normal driving. All injectors are different which is why we have different break points to change where the slopes swap.

We have a breakpoint number which tells the ecu when to swap from the low slope to the high slope. That means when there is enough fuel demand to get past the wonky part (usually just after idle) it'll swap from the low slope number to the high slope number.

 

Here's a couple of pictures to understand the wonky part of the slope

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Roland@pcmtec]

I highly recommend checking these guys out for some paid training if you want to learn more to start following this stuff as injectors are just the start of it, it gets more complicated as you go in deeper. We will also be offering training material this year and hopefully an in person training course. This will be via DSR Performance in VIC

https://calibratedsuccess.com/

https://thetuningschool.com/

[KyleBruh]

On 3/18/2021 at 6:24 PM, Puffwagon said:

 

Well we all start somewhere don't we...

 

This is a simple way of looking at it;

 

Think of the slope numbers as how big the ecu thinks the injector is. For the sake of making it easy, lets assume both slopes are the same number. If you make them 100 the ecu will run an afr of 14.7 for example. It wont actually be that afr but lets just say it is.

If we make the slope number smaller, the ecu thinks the injector is smaller and will open the injector for longer which will run richer.

So there is one way of thinking about how the size of the slopes work.

The reason there are 2 slopes, hi and lo, is because the injector doesn't flow a linear amount of fuel when it is only open for a short amount of time. Lets just say it flows 1mL when it is open for 1ms. It would make sense that it would flow 2mL for 2 ms and 10mL for 10ms right? The injector doesn't actually flow like that. It is kinda wonky and the first 1ms to 2ms doesn't flow the same, so that area gets a low slope number. The reason it's called the low slope isn't because the number is smaller, it's because it is the start of the slope.

Ideally we would have just one slope number but until we have injectors that flow the same from start to finish we have to break them up (get it?!? break point?!?) so we get the right amount of fuel at idle as well as normal driving. All injectors are different which is why we have different break points to change where the slopes swap.

We have a breakpoint number which tells the ecu when to swap from the low slope to the high slope. That means when there is enough fuel demand to get past the wonky part (usually just after idle) it'll swap from the low slope number to the high slope number.

 

Here's a couple of pictures to understand the wonky part of the slope

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sweet bro you made it a lot easier to understand.

 

I’ll reply properly when I get home anyway just been a bit busy to be able to respond to anything just reacted to let you know I’ve seen it.

1 hour ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

I highly recommend checking these guys out for some paid training if you want to learn more to start following this stuff as injectors are just the start of it, it gets more complicated as you go in deeper. We will also be offering training material this year and hopefully an in person training course. This will be via DSR Performance in VIC

https://calibratedsuccess.com/

https://thetuningschool.com/

Yeah I will definitely look into it, as I’d love to do all of my car myself as I’m rebuilding the engine just hit 290k on the clock still running strong for a ba, but the gearbox has now lost 3rd and 4th clutches are gone in it so it’s given me the motivation to manual swap it.

[KyleBruh]

On 3/9/2021 at 7:45 PM, jpm600 said:

Hi Kyle,

 

I haven't actually fitted my 42lb injectors yet, so i don't know how accurate this scaling is.  I've just used the official bosch data you have already above and used excel to calc for base pressure.  I do see it is different(leaner) compared with CAPA data for the 42lb injectors, but that might be a mail order tune fudge factor.  obviously once installed you can drive it off boost and watch you fuel trims to get an idea of how accurate.... or even better install wideband and use real data to adjust in real time.

Anyway, Excel sheet attached.

 

Hopefully people with more experience will chime in if i've made stupid mistakes.

 

regards,

Justin

INJECTOR CALCS.xlsx 9.83 kB · 18 downloads

So I finally got around to actually hooking up a wideband and seeing what this data put out , AFR is at about 10.3 when items cold, around 14.1 at idle once it’s warm, with WOT coming onto boost it’s steady around 14-14.5 and peak boost it’s coming up to 15 and settling there and what should I be targeting in these areas?

[BeerTurbo]

44 minutes ago, KyleBruh said:

So I finally got around to actually hooking up a wideband and seeing what this data put out , AFR is at about 10.3 when items cold, around 14.1 at idle once it’s warm, with WOT coming onto boost it’s steady around 14-14.5 and peak boost it’s coming up to 15 and settling there and what should I be targeting in these areas?

15 afr on boost? Stop driving it.

Read the stock fuel table, will answer your question.

14.7 at idle / 11.8 on boost.

[KyleBruh]

7 hours ago, BeerTurbo said:

15 afr on boost? Stop driving it.

Read the stock fuel table, will answer your question.

14.7 at idle / 11.8 on boost.

It’s barely been driven since March, only did a pass in it once I got the wideband hooked up. Otherwise it’s barely seen the road over the last fair few months.

had no license, so just been playing around with things until I get it back.

[KyleBruh]

okay well, I've just had a look at the stock fuel table, how do I get closer to that, is that all in scaling the injectors? or am I needing to modify elsewhere also? just having trouble wrapping my head around it.

[KyleBruh]

On 3/18/2021 at 6:24 PM, Puffwagon said:

 

Well we all start somewhere don't we...

 

This is a simple way of looking at it;

 

Think of the slope numbers as how big the ecu thinks the injector is. For the sake of making it easy, lets assume both slopes are the same number. If you make them 100 the ecu will run an afr of 14.7 for example. It wont actually be that afr but lets just say it is.

If we make the slope number smaller, the ecu thinks the injector is smaller and will open the injector for longer which will run richer.

So there is one way of thinking about how the size of the slopes work.

The reason there are 2 slopes, hi and lo, is because the injector doesn't flow a linear amount of fuel when it is only open for a short amount of time. Lets just say it flows 1mL when it is open for 1ms. It would make sense that it would flow 2mL for 2 ms and 10mL for 10ms right? The injector doesn't actually flow like that. It is kinda wonky and the first 1ms to 2ms doesn't flow the same, so that area gets a low slope number. The reason it's called the low slope isn't because the number is smaller, it's because it is the start of the slope.

Ideally we would have just one slope number but until we have injectors that flow the same from start to finish we have to break them up (get it?!? break point?!?) so we get the right amount of fuel at idle as well as normal driving. All injectors are different which is why we have different break points to change where the slopes swap.

We have a breakpoint number which tells the ecu when to swap from the low slope to the high slope. That means when there is enough fuel demand to get past the wonky part (usually just after idle) it'll swap from the low slope number to the high slope number.

 

Here's a couple of pictures to understand the wonky part of the slope

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

so I've finally had time, to read over what you've said and finally get back to you haha

 

so technically the the low slope needs to be decreased and the high slope needs to be increased by what results I've gotten (too rich at idle, and lean under load). 

[BeerTurbo]

36 minutes ago, KyleBruh said:

 

so I've finally had time, to read over what you've said and finally get back to you haha

 

so technically the the low slope needs to be decreased and the high slope needs to be increased by what results I've gotten (too rich at idle, and lean under load). 

What high/low do u have now? What injectors are you using?

[Roland@pcmtec]

Read the injector scaling howto

 

[KyleBruh]

20 hours ago, BeerTurbo said:

What high/low do u have now? What injectors are you using?

The high/ low and PW I entered were these (quoted below) the injectors I’m using are Bosch green 42lb/ 440cc.

On 3/9/2021 at 7:45 PM, jpm600 said:

Hi Kyle,

 

I haven't actually fitted my 42lb injectors yet, so i don't know how accurate this scaling is.  I've just used the official bosch data you have already above and used excel to calc for base pressure.  I do see it is different(leaner) compared with CAPA data for the 42lb injectors, but that might be a mail order tune fudge factor.  obviously once installed you can drive it off boost and watch you fuel trims to get an idea of how accurate.... or even better install wideband and use real data to adjust in real time.

Anyway, Excel sheet attached.

 

Hopefully people with more experience will chime in if i've made stupid mistakes.

 

regards,

Justin

INJECTOR CALCS.xlsx 9.83 kB · 21 downloads

Which I’ve only just been able to test with a wideband as I’ve been trying to find a house to move into so had to keep the car on the back burner, idle and cruise were a bit rich, but coming into positive manifold pressure it was leaning out.

 

10 hours ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

Read the injector scaling howto

 

Yeah I have, but found it a bit difficult to grasp how to adjust them, more so unfamiliar with the excel spread sheets that where attached in the comments also, so it makes it a bit more difficult never really learned how to use it back at school.

Edited January 12, 2022 by KyleBruh

[KyleBruh]

It’s hitting 12.1 at idle warm.

[jpm600]

Hi, this is the injector values in the capa tune for bosch green 42lb injectors.

They dont change any of the deadtime vs voltage on the capa tune and i wonder if that is the difference.  Anyway, these value should get you close.  If it's still lean under load, then how much boost? what fuel pump? what fuel pressure?

Hope it helps

[BeerTurbo]

45 minutes ago, KyleBruh said:

It’s hitting 12.1 at idle warm.

Look at your short n long term fuel.

From that rich at idle you would need to make low slope larger...or you have a leak.

[Roland@pcmtec]

48 minutes ago, KyleBruh said:

It’s hitting 12.1 at idle warm.

Post your LTFT plot as per the injector scaling thread. You can use the histograms in 2.1 instead of megalog viewer now.

[KyleBruh]

1 hour ago, jpm600 said:

Hi, this is the injector values in the capa tune for bosch green 42lb injectors.

They dont change any of the deadtime vs voltage on the capa tune and i wonder if that is the difference.  Anyway, these value should get you close.  If it's still lean under load, then how much boost? what fuel pump? what fuel pressure?

Hope it helps

Still running factory boost turbosmart actuator 5psi spring, 255 walbro, factory 4bar reg.

haven’t touched anything other then the injectors and switching it from auto to manual.

1 hour ago, BeerTurbo said:

Look at your short n long term fuel.

From that rich at idle you would need to make low slope larger...or you have a leak.

I don’t believe I have a leak, as far as I’m aware, I did have a leak at the turbo to manifold but that’s been sorted for a while.

 

1 hour ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

Post your LTFT plot as per the injector scaling thread. You can use the histograms in 2.1 instead of megalog viewer now.

How do I do that?

I’ll have a look and check back in again.

[KyleBruh]

On 8/21/2019 at 8:08 PM, Roland@pcmtec said:

For anyone doing this from scratch I recommend logging the following values and loading it into mega log viewer. In this case the vehicle simple has the wrong slopes. I believe they have put slopes for a KPM 1100 injector which have a less steep low slope (reverse of say an ID1000).

	Engine speed
	load used for spark table
	desired lambda
	long term fuel trim
	Fuel mass requested
	Pulse width
	open loop
	TPS
	vehicle speed
	Intake cam position
	Exhaust cam position
	Current speed density offset
	Current speed density slope

 

I then loaded this into a scatterplot, red is 1.0, rest of the scale is on the right. I also filtered this data against transient by taking the derivative of rpm and adding a data filter (these are included in megalog HD). Here is the filter I used

(abs([ENGINE_SPEED] - [ENGINE_SPEED-4]) > ([ENGINE_SPEED] * 0.05)) 

I also made a histogram

Here are the injector figures (ID1000s)

As you can see the low slope is completely wrong and far too rich (I believe KPM injectors have a weird slope like this). For ID1000s the low slope should be steeper than the high slope.

From the scatter plot you can see the high slope appears perfect. This means we need to adjust both slopes to accomodate for the new low slow (will pull 12% off fueling out first go)

REST TO COME SOON

This is where I got too it’s just quite a bit to understand. 

[BeerTurbo]

19 hours ago, jpm600 said:

Hi, this is the injector values in the capa tune for bosch green 42lb injectors.

They dont change any of the deadtime vs voltage on the capa tune and i wonder if that is the difference.  Anyway, these value should get you close.  If it's still lean under load, then how much boost? what fuel pump? what fuel pressure?

Hope it helps

 

The FG F6 uses 440cc injectors from memory. well i think at 4 bar they work out to be in the 500cc range, but here is the slopes for that.

they have verry similar low slopes so if your using this size injectors this is prob a god start point?

 

 

[Roland@pcmtec]

17 hours ago, KyleBruh said:

This is where I got too it’s just quite a bit to understand. 

There are plenty of people that you could pay to dial the injectors in for you. You could try some people on this forum or a workshop.

[KyleBruh]

3 hours ago, BeerTurbo said:

 

The FG F6 uses 440cc injectors from memory. well i think at 4 bar they work out to be in the 500cc range, but here is the slopes for that.

they have verry similar low slopes so if your using this size injectors this is prob a god start point?

 

 

yeah cheers man I’m happy to spend the time to work it out.

 

3 hours ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

There are plenty of people that you could pay to dial the injectors in for you. You could try some people on this forum or a workshop.

Nah I want to use my car to learn, I’m happy to work out how to do it, in the end it’s all trial and error and I’m happy to hit those dead ends and and have to try again to rectify them, just takes a while for me to wrap my head around stuff.

 

but yeah, I can’t really do anything at the moment with it until I actually do some data logging, then plot them out like you were suggesting earlier in those programs.

[KyleBruh]

On 1/13/2022 at 2:26 PM, Roland@pcmtec said:

There are plenty of people that you could pay to dial the injectors in for you. You could try some people on this forum or a workshop.

And this is what my fuel trims were like wasn’t much of a drive.

[Roland@pcmtec]

Can you log a histogram in the datalogger using the channels discussed. 

[KyleBruh]

1 hour ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

Can you log a histogram in the datalogger using the channels discussed. 

Yeah, that was the only thing I had available just need to download them

[Roland@pcmtec]

3 hours ago, KyleBruh said:

Yeah, that was the only thing I had available just need to download them

You can use histograms in 2.1 now, you don't need megalogviewer. 

[KyleBruh]

3 hours ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

You can use histograms in 2.1 now, you don't need megalogviewer. 

Oh sweet I’ll give it a crack later in the week, been a bit busy.

Just curious is the website crashing for anyone else? Just on safari on iPhone, once the screen loads it like resets but with a blank page with page data at the top.

[jpm600]

It happens that I just had my 42lb bosch green injectors installed today.  

so i've just tested the data that i gave you from the calculation from the bosch data.  I've only done a very short drive, but I just made a scatter plot as described above of Fuel flow(lb) vs Pulse width vs LTFT with the result below.

So..... If i'm interpreting correctly, that's pretty clearly rich in the low slope, then heading lean in the high slope.

I just tried the Capa tune hi-slope,low slope and break points and went for a drive, felt better, but the scatter plot looked like.

 

which is a bit better, but not good. so time to start making some adjustments..... and install my wideband which has been sitting on the bench over a year now.

[jpm600]

Ignore the plots above,  I just realised I didn't change the injector dead times. so that might be a big part of the problem....

try again tomorrow.

[jpm600]

Got a chance to datalog the drive home today.

capa slopes and breakpoint do look pretty good in the high slopes, the scatterplot shows a bit rich in the low slope(circle is approximately breakpoint).

although it gets even richer lower down, so I think the injector deadtimes are still too long. However, it drives great, so i'm not super keen to change it too much.

So, @KyleBruh i would say if you use the capa slopes and deadtimes in the excel sheet, you should be good.  If it's still rich at idle and lean under power, then something else must be wrong.... counterfeit bosch green injectors?

 

On 3/7/2021 at 9:08 PM, KyleBruh said:

and another question my timing table seems out of whack as it’s running 10 deg retard in timing at idle also. Is something going on?

As I understand it, a lot of idle control is done with spark as it reacts fast, so maybe check spark source at idle. maybe air leak after throttle.

[Roland@pcmtec]

-10 at idle means you have an air leak. The engine will also overheat if you leave it like this. 

[KyleBruh]

11 hours ago, jpm600 said:

Got a chance to datalog the drive home today.

capa slopes and breakpoint do look pretty good in the high slopes, the scatterplot shows a bit rich in the low slope(circle is approximately breakpoint).

although it gets even richer lower down, so I think the injector deadtimes are still too long. However, it drives great, so i'm not super keen to change it too much.

So, @KyleBruh i would say if you use the capa slopes and deadtimes in the excel sheet, you should be good.  If it's still rich at idle and lean under power, then something else must be wrong.... counterfeit bosch green injectors?

 

As I understand it, a lot of idle control is done with spark as it reacts fast, so maybe check spark source at idle. maybe air leak after throttle.

So the one you are referring to is the one you initially posted?

 

I’ll have to check over everything in that case, I do have a stripped manifold threat in the head and I’ve got the heli coil kit to repair that to solve one of the potential causes and re-tension the throttle body and probably do the intake manifold gasket because as far as I’m aware it’s still the factory gasket but it doesn’t misfire or anything to lead me to believe it has a manifold leak.

[jpm600]

3 hours ago, KyleBruh said:

So the one you are referring to is the one you initially posted?

 

I used the injector deadtimes calculated the the excel sheet posted initially and these for slopes

On 1/12/2022 at 7:43 PM, jpm600 said:

 

There was very little difference between these and the ones calculated in the spreadsheet. These are slightly richer in the high slope, which looks better on my scatterplot.

[KyleBruh]

31 minutes ago, jpm600 said:

I used the injector deadtimes calculated the the excel sheet posted initially and these for slopes

There was very little difference between these and the ones calculated in the spreadsheet. These are slightly richer in the high slope, which looks better on my scatterplot.

Okay sweet, when I get a chance to have a fiddle I will just moving at the moment so a bit tied up

[Roland@pcmtec]

18% fuel trims is pretty bad. Take you 2 more goes to half that. Min pulsewidth or dead times for sure looking at that plot. 

[KyleBruh]

On 1/29/2022 at 2:30 PM, jpm600 said:

I used the injector deadtimes calculated the the excel sheet posted initially and these for slopes

There was very little difference between these and the ones calculated in the spreadsheet. These are slightly richer in the high slope, which looks better on my scatterplot.

So where do I find the deadtimes in the spreadsheet?

[Bill]

3 hours ago, KyleBruh said:

So where do I find the deadtimes in the spreadsheet?

FNPW_OFFSET