Resetting ZF learned adaptions

[Mick]

Is there a definite way to reset the learned adaptions on a ZF in FGmk2?

turning them off and back on again is not resetting them

And has anyone found anything to make the adaptions occur in less time?

[brettus]

Isn't the reset adaptions on the read/write screen (bottom right tick able setting)? 

[hjtrbo]

No, it's been covered before, resets pcm stuff. From memory idle learn values and fuel trims??? If you search you'll find the thread where Roland give us the run down. 

 

The ZF adapt reset is a bit of a mystery. Some say the procedure available on this forum works, others say it doesn't. There is some bench flash software starting to make its way out to the public which is used for OS swaps. If that writes to the adapt area and resets it back to 0 would be awesome. No idea if it does. 

[Roland@pcmtec]

If someone in SA loans me a ZF falcon with high kms and a box that is heavily worn for a week I will figure it out. 

Until then we need sometime in the community to datalog the adaption values that hjtrbo found, try the various suggestions and report back. 

I've never tried but it might be possible for us to directly write to the dmrs used for adaption. I suspect they will be overwritten by kam on startup though. 

[jakka351]

Can you not drive it like you stole it for a bit and do a bit of enthusiastic adaptation re-learning

[hjtrbo]

2 hours ago, jakka351 said:

Can you not drive it like you stole it for a bit and do a bit of enthusiastic adaptation re-learning

Of course.  

The adaption values change over time that is for sure. I've been keeping an eye on mine. Some have improved with increased pressure but alas my E clutch adapts are getting worse. It's just a matter of time before the box comes out.

[Mick]

6 hours ago, hjtrbo said:

No, it's been covered before, resets pcm stuff. From memory idle learn values and fuel trims??? If you search you'll find the thread where Roland give us the run down. 

 

The ZF adapt reset is a bit of a mystery. Some say the procedure available on this forum works, others say it doesn't. There is some bench flash software starting to make its way out to the public which is used for OS swaps. If that writes to the adapt area and resets it back to 0 would be awesome. No idea if it does. 

Which numbers is Roland talking about that you found?

These ones?

[Mick]

4 hours ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

If someone in SA loans me a ZF falcon with high kms and a box that is heavily worn for a week I will figure it out. 

Until then we need sometime in the community to datalog the adaption values that hjtrbo found, try the various suggestions and report back. 

I've never tried but it might be possible for us to directly write to the dmrs used for adaption. I dislodge they will be overwritten by kam on startup though. 

is there anything you want me to try?

[hjtrbo]

1 minute ago, Mick said:

Which numbers is Roland talking about that you found?

These ones?

yes

[Mick]

19 minutes ago, hjtrbo said:

yes

thanks, I've been logging those for a while now and they are what the topic is about, I'm also interested to know whether a positive number is adding pressure or it's reporting how much the pressure was too high.

I always assumed it was adding

[hjtrbo]

Presume so. There is some docs I posted in another ZF thread somewhere here. One of them was out of a ZF training seminar where they listed the range of acceptable adapt values. 

[Roland@pcmtec]

18 hours ago, Mick said:

thanks, I've been logging those for a while now and they are what the topic is about, I'm also interested to know whether a positive number is adding pressure or it's reporting how much the pressure was too high.

I always assumed it was adding

Yep so check these values. Then try and "reset" them. Then datalog again and they should be back to 0 before you start the car, then they will slowly learn back to what they were before. There are various adders for how fast it can learn forwards and backwards. It doesnt really make sense for a clutch to get better, hence why when you put a new box in they dont like to unlearn the wear. I'm sure there are some PID gains you could adjust to speed up how fast it learns in the reverse direction.

[Mick]

8 hours ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

Yep so check these values. Then try and "reset" them. Then datalog again and they should be back to 0 before you start the car, then they will slowly learn back to what they were before. There are various adders for how fast it can learn forwards and backwards. It doesnt really make sense for a clutch to get better, hence why when you put a new box in they dont like to unlearn the wear. I'm sure there are some PID gains you could adjust to speed up how fast it learns in the reverse direction.

I set ZF03182 to 0, flashed it, tuned on data logger and learned values were still there, I reset ZF03182 to 1 reflashed it again, checked with logger again and still the same values remaimed.

FG Mk2 XR6 T

[Bill]

46 minutes ago, Mick said:

I set ZF03182 to 0, flashed it, tuned on data logger and learned values were still there, I reset ZF03182 to 1 reflashed it again, checked with logger again and still the same values remaimed.

FG Mk2 XR6 T

Did you start the car & put it in gear after changing it to 0 & then turn it off before flashing it back to 1?

[Mick]

18 minutes ago, Bill said:

Did you start the car & put it in gear after changing it to 0 & then turn it off before flashing it back to 1?

No I did not

[Mick]

27 minutes ago, Bill said:

Did you start the car & put it in gear after changing it to 0 & then turn it off before flashing it back to 1?

I redid it that way, still did not reset

[Bill]

39 minutes ago, Mick said:

I redid it that way, still did not reset

Yeah, I didn't know if you'd done it or whether it would make a difference but thought I'd check, it's written as part of the procedure 

[Roland@pcmtec]

One that's worth a shot is flashing a BF strategy into an FG or vice versa then putting the original os back. In most modern Fords they reset the KAM when that happens. 

[hjtrbo]

ooh. I presume just the calibration segment(s) goes across? Or the OS as well?

[Mick]

2 hours ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

One that's worth a shot is flashing a BF strategy into an FG or vice versa then putting the original os back. In most modern Fords they reset the KAM when that happens. 

No chance of an issue by just flashing it in? Obviously not going to try to use it to run the car

Edited December 12, 2022 by Mick

[Bill]

8 hours ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

One that's worth a shot is flashing a BF strategy into an FG or vice versa then putting the original os back. In most modern Fords they reset the KAM when that happens. 

You'd need something like PCMFlash to change the TCM OS.

I tried this with PCMTEC a long time ago & again this morning. I don't have a licenced FG TCM so it first prompts to licence the TCM as expected. It then determines the TCM part numbers don't match 

 

Program Error. Please contact support@pcmtec.com.
Detailed information:
Exception Message: ZF Part number of vehicle (DAI26832) does not match the part number of the file (DAC26840)
Merging the serial number would brick the vehicle. You must only flash in a matching TCM OSID to the TCM. Source: Pcmtec.Editor Exception Format: _u3HBrE0jX7mWSGMMYVRpFPzKgdw
 StackTrace:    at _ONL59ErIAD4BWw6Qc2htQIbeooB._jwPA5dLVOyy8KYw7u3QQntWjsYH.MoveNext()
--- End of stack trace from previous location where exception was thrown ---
   at System.Runtime.CompilerServices.TaskAwaiter.ThrowForNonSuccess(Task task)
   at System.Runtime.CompilerServices.TaskAwaiter.HandleNonSuccessAndDebuggerNotification(Task task)
   at System.Runtime.CompilerServices.TaskAwaiter.ValidateEnd(Task task)
   at _ONL59ErIAD4BWw6Qc2htQIbeooB._MaJ2GsSOsVTLmRQPDrc2TSFLJ9A.MoveNext()

 

[Roland@pcmtec]

I think there is a bypass for that. It will "brick" the tcm but it will recover just fine. I think we allow editing the part number on 3.00 also (there is no good reason to do this except for what we are trying here) 

If you do recovery mode flash with the ZF without licensing the file it should prompt to auromeege the serial. I think it will slip the part number and go on. 

[Bill]

18 minutes ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

I think there is a bypass for that. It will "brick" the tcm but it will recover just fine. I think we allow editing the part number on 3.00 also (there is no good reason to do this except forehat we are trying here) 

I'm unable to edit the TCM part number in 2.11 & 3.0.
Trying yes as per below just results in an error.

I'm happy to bench test using the TCM I have here if you want to provide a "Test Version" that allows editing the part number. The BF TCM I'm using for testing has a broken pin & has been flashed a heap of times. Lost communication & recovered so I'm not too concerned. This would tell us if changing to a FG calibration will reset adaptations. 

I have tried setting ZF03182 to 0 in using a Territory 7R29 calibration & flashing over a BF 5R29 calibration with no change to adaptations. They use the same TCM part number 

 

[Roland@pcmtec]

Attach your file here and I will give it a go. 

[Bill]

7 minutes ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

Attach your file here and I will give it a go. 

 

8R29-7J105-DF_TCM_Test.tec

[Roland@pcmtec]

Just the calibration which causes the OS to freak out and go into bootloader mode (due to OS and Cal mismatch). Usually this corrupts the KAM as different operating systems align the KAM memory differently, then after recovery the KAM is reset (this happens in the new Ford PCMs). This is a hacky way to do it but it might work.

8 hours ago, Mick said:

No chance of an issue by just flashing it in? Obviously not going to try to use it to run the car

I don't like to give guarantees, but back in the day we allowed it (not on purpose) and it was always recoverable. Worst case the whole OS/Cal can be recovered via KLine and one of the guys with the ZF flashing software.

[Mick]

I'm getting worried to try to flash this at home in my driveway in case it leaves me stranded.

But if I get game is it just a matter of bringing up a licenced BF tune that I have and then when flashing it in, just write to the TCM? Leave the ECU alone?

If I get any warnings, do I just ignore them?

[Roland@pcmtec]

Just now, Mick said:

But if I get game is it just a matter of bringing up a licenced BF tune that I have and then when flashing it in, just write to the TCM? Leave the ECU alone?

If I get any warnings, do I just ignore them?

Yes just doing a recovery write should fix anything.

[Mick]

3 minutes ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

Yes just doing a recovery write should fix anything.

thank you

[Roland@pcmtec]

@Billthat file you attached is that with the serial of the TCM you are trying to flashing? If not can you send the licensed TCM file you are using currently in the bench PCM and I'll make a file with the wrong calibration in it but the same serial, that is all you really need to do to make it flash.

[Mick]

I just attempted to flash a BF ZF file that I have that is licensed to another car into my FG Mk2 I get the same warnings as Bill

[Bill]

28 minutes ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

@Billthat file you attached is that with the serial of the TCM you are trying to flashing? If not can you send the licensed TCM file you are using currently in the bench PCM and I'll make a file with the wrong calibration in it but the same serial, that is all you really need to do to make it flash.

@Roland@pcmtec the previous file is unlicenced but is the FG one we want to change the part number on & try. Here's a licenced BF file with serial

5R29-7J105-DG.tec

[Bill]

5 minutes ago, Mick said:

I just attempted to flash a BF ZF file that I have that is licensed to another car into my FG Mk2 I get the same warnings as Bill

@Mick if you're not in a rush & can hold off until I get the file back from Roland, I'll test flashing it on the TCM I have here. If something goes wrong on the bench, it won't be as big an issue

Edited December 12, 2022 by Bill

[Mick]

5 minutes ago, Bill said:

@Mick if you're not in a rush & can hold off until I get the file back from Roland, I'll test flashing it on the TCM I have here. If something goes wrong on the bench, it won't be as big an issue

probably a good idea, no use both of us doing the same thing at the same time

[Roland@pcmtec]

8R29-7J105-DF_TCM_with BF serial.tec

Try this. You'll need to license it as well. Enable recovery mode when flashing and it should stop the warning about mismatched OS etc. Note that I had to do this manually, the editor normally blocks you from merging the serial in (for good reason).

The trans should go into limp mode once that file is in, I'd power cycle everything, then put the correct file back in using recovery mode and then check the adaption values.

[Roland@pcmtec]

I did a bit of search and I reckon the following scalars might reset the learned data

ZF02841 Prevent the deleting of the Adaptation data by the initial start (ON=1, OFF=0)

ZF02859 Switch for activation of the EEPROM data handling EE_SPIEGEL 0=OFF, 1=ONLY START, 2=ON

 

These likely are how fast it can learn

ZF01162 Maximum permisisible change of the adaption value (mbar)

ZF01162 Maximum permisisible change of the adaption value (timer)

 

TSF I think is time

ZF03011 Lower limit of TSF adaptation value for the clutch 0=A....4=E

ZF03010 Upper limit of TSF adaptation value for the clutch 0=A....4=E

 

PF I believe is pressure

ZF02971 Upper limit of PF Adaptation value for the clutch 0=A ... 4=E

ZF02972 Lower limit of PF Adaptation value for the clutch 0=A ... 4=E

ZF02886 Switch for activating/deactivating the shift pressure adaptation, valid for CRC adaptation 0=Off, 1=On, 2=On+Initialization

ZF02863 Switch to activate/deactivate the flare adaptation 0=Off, 1=On, 2=On+Initialization

ZF02842 Switch to enable modification of shift adaptation depending upon stroke adaptation

Then there are all of these

They use adaptation and adaption interchangeably. Loads of stuff you could play with here.

[Bill]

2 hours ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

8R29-7J105-DF_TCM_with BF serial.tec 249.17 kB · 1 download

Try this. You'll need to license it as well. Enable recovery mode when flashing and it should stop the warning about mismatched OS etc. Note that I had to do this manually, the editor normally blocks you from merging the serial in (for good reason).

The trans should go into limp mode once that file is in, I'd power cycle everything, then put the correct file back in using recovery mode and then check the adaption values.

Erased TCM Flash & failed to write. It successfully wrote back the original BF file & reads ok but there are no changes to adaptation values

[Puffwagon]

42 minutes ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

ZF02859

Stock value is 2. I set it to 0, flashed the TCM and adapts had returned to 0. I started the car and adapts stayed at 0. I then returned ZF02859 to 2, flashed the TCM, started the car and adapts stayed at 0. Went for a quick drive, not enough to get it up to temp and the adapts were still at 0 went I got home.

Built trans, not much wear, only drove it gently cos built motor running from cold, trans didn't feel much different. I'll take it for a longer drive later and see what happens.

[hjtrbo]

If you have a trans cooler without a thermostat there is a scalar that can be lowered to enable adapts at a lower temperature. I'm away from my pc to get you the scalar ID. 

edit: ID
ZF00027

Edited December 13, 2022 by hjtrbo

[Mick]

1 hour ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

I did a bit of search and I reckon the following scalars might reset the learned data

 

ZF02859 Switch for activation of the EEPROM data handling EE_SPIEGEL 0=OFF, 1=ONLY START, 2=ON

40 minutes ago, Puffwagon said:

Stock value is 2. I set it to 0, flashed the TCM and adapts had returned to 0. I started the car and adapts stayed at 0. I then returned ZF02859 to 2, flashed the TCM, started the car and adapts stayed at 0. .

 

 

This cleared my Adaptions as well, FG MK2

 

Thank you very much

 

 

[Roland@pcmtec]

27 minutes ago, hjtrbo said:

If you have a trans cooler without a thermostat there is a scalar that can be lowered to enable adapts at a lower temperature. I'm away from my pc to get you the scalar ID. 

edit: ID
ZF00027

Yes this must be done. This was a great find by hjtrbo. There are a few other scalers as well that set other ranges, however I assume they are there for good reason. The learning algorithm will expect temperatures to be within a certain spec. I suspect you could lower it to say 10 just as a test though.

50 minutes ago, Puffwagon said:

Stock value is 2. I set it to 0, flashed the TCM and adapts had returned to 0. I started the car and adapts stayed at 0. I then returned ZF02859 to 2, flashed the TCM, started the car and adapts stayed at 0. Went for a quick drive, not enough to get it up to temp and the adapts were still at 0 went I got home.

Built trans, not much wear, only drove it gently cos built motor running from cold, trans didn't feel much different. I'll take it for a longer drive later and see what happens.

Absolutely brilliant work guys! Let us know how long it takes to re-learn with the temperature threshold set lower.

[Puffwagon]

I knew about the adapt range temp beforehand from a previous conversation with hjrturbo. I checked the adapt temps yesterday, it is between 60C and 90C, my trans sits around 80 when warmed up. I just finished up a 26km drive with mixed driving, the E clutch adapt went to -46, the rest stayed at 0. Before the drive they were as below;

A= 330

B= 60

C= -197

D= 148

E= 107

[Puffwagon]

The E clutch adapt changed at 750 seconds into the drive

[Kirby@PCMTec]

1 hour ago, Puffwagon said:

The E clutch adapt changed at 750 seconds into the drive

And this has survived a power cycle with ZF02859 set to 2?

Would be interested to know how much time/driving is required to see other values start to populate.

[Puffwagon]

Yes it has. I just reflashed the PCM and TCM cos I had an update for my engine tune. Apart from being a dumbass and turning the key off when the TCM started writing, causing me to use recovery mode, it all fixed up and the E clutch still has the negative value there.

Something that is likely as important in this process is the adapt times that are there. Mine were different previously, went to 0 with the reset and has a number on only the B clutch now.

I'm going for a several hundred km drive this weekend so will have some data after that.

[Puffwagon]

Worth a mention, before my trans was rebuilt with many an aftermarket part, it was stock and survived over 900awhp for months. It did slip every now and then and eventually broke the input shaft.

When it was rebuilt I only got a few weeks of driving on it before an engine failure. Now it has only had a couple thousand km on it so the previously mentioned numbers are likely remnants from the stock box.

Anyhow I'll update the numbers over time so we can see what it does.

[Kirby@PCMTec]

Just now, Puffwagon said:

Worth a mention, before my trans was rebuilt with many an aftermarket part, it was stock and survived over 900awhp for months. It did slip every now and then and eventually broke the input shaft.

When it was rebuilt I only got a few weeks of driving on it before an engine failure. Now it has only had a couple thousand km on it so the previously mentioned numbers are likely remnants from the stock box.

Anyhow I'll update the numbers over time so we can see what it does.

The real testament will be getting to a stable adaptation value (over say 100km) then resetting it again, and doing a similar cycle and seeing if you adapt to similar numbers again...

[Puffwagon]

I can try that. There are various methods used to relearn a zf box. I'll give them a try over the coming weeks.

Schnellefullzeit means fast fill time or quick fill time. This is the other thing that reset.ZF_Adaptation procedure.pdf

[Roland@pcmtec]

@Kirby@PCMTec is going to work on giving those parameters some decent names and descriptions shortly as well.

[hjtrbo]

Having a read of the adaption procedures. Do we know what software version we are? Stuck on night shift so cant go through the tune. 

Software P says 6HP19 which leaves us 19.02 (A), 19.04 (N), 19.11 (T)