Make NA shoot massive flames

[Andre34]

Hey guys,

I’ve got an NA ford territory which is stock other thank the exhaust. I’ve got a 100 cell cat (the factory cat shattered from my pop crackle tune hahah), one resonator and one hotdog muffler.

I’ve only just started learning about tuning a month or so ago. I started off by making a crackle tune which I managed to do successfully by following the previous forums. I did have to retard the timing on decel extremely to achieve this though (-17 degrees). I found that keeping the fuel in auF0172 just a fraction richer than stock helped make these pops louder.

 

Now im trying to achieve big flames. My approach was to go richer and I assumed it would do the trick. I set my fuel on 0 load to 0.5 for 2500rpm and up. All my pops and crackles went away. I ended up retarding my spark timing even more (-32 degrees) on auF16593, 0228 and 16630. I set lambase when torque is 0 to 0.5 on auF1479. I ended up with some small flames as you can see in the video.

I had a mate follow me and he said I would get occasional flames on decel too, but nothing bigger than what I’ve gotten on park.

I saw that one of the posts mentioned to increase the minimum pulse width to make the car do stupid things, but it just got rid of all pops and crackles.

I’ve turned off many of the exhaust temp protection stuff in hopes that it would change things, but I had no luck 

what else can I try to make huge flames? 
 

I am using pro edition with HACCKBA strategy and 5R79-7J105-AG tcm stratergy with 5R29V1 template.

 

If there are any screenshots or more info I can provide to help, please let me know.

 

Thanks
 

 

Edited July 7, 2023 by Andre34
Typo

[Puffwagon]

Change the minimum dfso time (auF1265) to something higher than 1.2 seconds. This will stop the injectors turning off on decel for a longer amount of time. This will also increase the amount of time it pops and crackles while decelerating.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Puffwagon

[Andre34]

@Puffwagon I’ve got it to 8 seconds at the moment. I’ve also increased cfc just to be sure

Edited July 8, 2023 by Andre34

[Andre34]

This is my most up to date tune. Some of the things in it are experimental but i'm not 100% sure if they made a difference or not so I kept them in.

 

My most recent modification was done because I wasn't getting any backfires when i rev past 4500rpm. I ended up advancing the exhaust cam at 5000 rpm to 40 and now I'm getting decent bangs up top. I'm not sure exactly why its happened but i'm not complaining.

 

If it is possible, I really want to shoot 2m flames that linger instead of the pop flame effect i've got at the moment. I'm stuck on what else to change.

HACCKBA- SY territory - Current development.tec

[Andre34]

Here are my latest values. There's a few more things like advancing the exhaust cam by 20 degrees at 4000rpm. I'm still not getting that big lingering flame i want. Could anyone let me know what else I can try.

 

Cheers

 

[Andre34]

Here is a video of the latest changes I’ve made. 

 

 

 

[Roland@pcmtec]

Multiply your injector slopes by 400% and put them in the launch tune. Hacky way but it would likely do something interesting. 

[Puffwagon]

58 minutes ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

Multiply your injector slopes by 400%

This would remove 3/4 of the amount of fuel it usually injects. Is this what you meant or did you mean to add fuel?

[Andre34]

1 hour ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

Multiply your injector slopes by 400% and put them in the launch tune. Hacky way but it would likely do something interesting. 

 

Both of these or just the low slope?

so for auF0119, turn 0.01031 into 0.04124? and do the same for 0121?

Also, I only have pro edition for the moment so I cant use the launch tune function. (if you're referring to the one that activates by holding down cruise control)

 

I'll give this a go tonight.

[Roland@pcmtec]

I'm sure you guys know what I meant. Add lots of fuel. By using injector slopes you get around all the min lambda clips etc

[Roland@pcmtec]

1 hour ago, Andre34 said:

Also, I only have pro edition for the moment so I cant use the launch tune function. (if you're referring to the one that activates by holding down cruise control)

 

I'll give this a go tonight.

Then this will not work. It will flood the engine. 

[Puffwagon]

I wasn't saying it to be a prick Roland, I just wanted it to be clear. Bigger numbers mean less fuel, you and I know that but not everyone does and it is counter intuitive.

My 5.0 VN Commodore does massive fence shaking bangs with the O2 sensor hole open compared to when there's a sensor in there. This is due to the extra amount of air being introduced to the exhaust, giving the correct afr in the pipe for an explosion rather than a gentle rumble. Also the decel timing is at 5 degrees for the decel rumble.

I'm not going to do any testing on my territory to find out how to blow a 2 metre long flame, but I reckon if you put the basics together it couldn't be too hard to work out. Start with a very hot exhaust cos flames don't work with a cold one.

[Andre34]

1 hour ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

I'm sure you guys know what I meant. Add lots of fuel. By using injector slopes you get around all the min lambda clips etc

I can confirm that the engine just flooded. I tried both increase and decrease because I wasn’t sure lol.

 

are there any other tips? I’ve got my fuel at around 0.6. Should it technically make more flames if I put something stupid like 0.2?

[Andre34]

32 minutes ago, Puffwagon said:

I wasn't saying it to be a prick Roland, I just wanted it to be clear. Bigger numbers mean less fuel, you and I know that but not everyone does and it is counter intuitive.

My 5.0 VN Commodore does massive fence shaking bangs with the O2 sensor hole open compared to when there's a sensor in there. This is due to the extra amount of air being introduced to the exhaust, giving the correct afr in the pipe for an explosion rather than a gentle rumble. Also the decel timing is at 5 degrees for the decel rumble.

I'm not going to do any testing on my territory to find out how to blow a 2 metre long flame, but I reckon if you put the basics together it couldn't be too hard to work out. Start with a very hot exhaust cos flames don't work with a cold one.

Ok I’ll give the o2 sensor trick a go. Would it work with the back o2 sensor instead of the front?

 

what else can I try? Sorry if im slow, I just started this for the first time a few weeks ago so im doing my best to pick it up.

[Puffwagon]

Just now, Andre34 said:

I’ll give the o2 sensor trick a go

No don't do that. I was making a comparison to what happens at the back of the car with different afr's in the exhaust. You can't remove the O2 sensor without having a bunch of issues. Yes you can switch it off but that is for a different thread. The only reason I removed the sensor in the vn is cause I needed it for another car.

[Andre34]

2 minutes ago, Puffwagon said:

No don't do that. I was making a comparison to what happens at the back of the car with different afr's in the exhaust. You can't remove the O2 sensor without having a bunch of issues. Yes you can switch it off but that is for a different thread. The only reason I removed the sensor in the vn is cause I needed it for another car.

Ahh ok gotcha. I got it turned off anyway since it didn't like my aftermarket cat.

[Puffwagon]

You can turn off the back one no worries, it's the front one that you want working as it controls the closed loop fuel. Your backfires are similar to the ones my commodore makes.

[Andre34]

2 minutes ago, Puffwagon said:

You can turn off the back one no worries, it's the front one that you want working as it controls the closed loop fuel. Your backfires are similar to the ones my commodore makes.

I see. Do you think it can get much bigger or last longer with the NA territory?

 

[Puffwagon]

Yes, I'm looking at some stuff now from when mine used to make huge flames.

[Andre34]

1 minute ago, Puffwagon said:

Yes, I'm looking at some stuff now from when mine used to make huge flames.

Thanks

[Andre34]

 

Also, what would happen if i put a negative value into this table? would it spit out more fuel?

[Puffwagon]

That is your open loop base fuel table and the numbers are lambda units. It uses that table when the the actual tps ad count (throttle position) is higher than auF0523 (open loop TPS transition). It uses the y axis and actual tps ad count to decide which row to use for fuelling, when it is in open loop.

To answer the question, no you don't use negative numbers there. 1 = 14.7:1, lower numbers are richer. You can use an afr chart online to see what afr it is.

I'll attach a picture of a map you can use as you have way too much fuel in it now. It is from an stock na territory and I have checked it with a wideband. It'll be slow and use heaps of fuel with the way you have it set up now. By all means add fuel to it along the 0 row but don't use negative numbers, it's not how that works. To make sure the mixture can't fully combust in the cylinder, which will put raw fuel into the exhaust, you will want a number around 0.6 or lower in the 0 row. Try going lower than this but I wouldn't put a 0 in there, it might not work. Putting 0.1 in there with the tune stoich set at 14.64:1 (which it will be) is 1.46 parts of air to 1 part of fuel, that is a ton of fuel going into the engine and might cause issues such as bore washing, diluting the engine oil and possible hydro lock.

I looked at my old tune that use to have heaps of decel flames and it was nearly stock in all the areas that you'd think would make flames. It just had the dfso time at 20 seconds and the decel spark at 0 from 2000rpm and up, that's about it. It was a turbo car tho and had a very hot exhaust from running 30+psi of boost.

 

[Puffwagon]

I gotta cook dinner now anyway so good luck with any changes you make. There are more conversations about some of the stuff I've mentioned there, so just use the search bar if you don't understand any of it.

[Andre34]

57 minutes ago, Puffwagon said:

I gotta cook dinner now anyway so good luck with any changes you make. There are more conversations about some of the stuff I've mentioned there, so just use the search bar if you don't understand any of it.

Awesome thanks for that. I’ve had a play around and I think my flames are slightly bigger. I’m still on -20 decel spark though but I’ll keep playing around to see what comes out better.

 

 

[Roland@pcmtec]

20 hours ago, Andre34 said:

Also, what would happen if i put a negative value into this table? would it spit out more fuel?

There are various minimum lambda clips, I believe at 0.6 or 0.5 is the lowest it will command. These clips are likely all in the workshop edition. Negative values in a lot of tables are usually clipped or will crash the PCM (you'll see the dash reset) as they result in a divide by 0 depending on the calculation.

[Andre34]

37 minutes ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

There are various minimum lambda clips, I believe at 0.6 or 0.5 is the lowest it will command. These clips are likely all in the workshop edition. Negative values in a lot of tables are usually clipped or will crash the PCM (you'll see the dash reset) as they result in a divide by 0 depending on the calculation.

Ok good to know. Thanks for the info. I’ll be getting workshop edition eventually. I just want to do my learning in pro so that there aren’t enough parameters available for me to completely blow up the motor.

 

one thing I can’t understand though is that my flames and pops seem to get worse when I go richer for rpm’s above 3500, is that because there’d be so much fuel that it gets too cold for the exhaust to ignite? I’m using 91 octane to get the most of the flammability. From what I read, the higher the octane, the cleaner the burn but the lower the flammability 

[Puffwagon]

Don't run 91 octane, you're better off putting your dick in a blender. Seriously tho, the stock timing map for a na territory is literally right on the verge of knocking, even when you run 98 octane fuel. Running 91 will be losing a bunch of power due to the knock sensors pulling timing out.

[Roland@pcmtec]

18 hours ago, Andre34 said:

one thing I can’t understand though is that my flames and pops seem to get worse when I go richer for rpm’s above 3500, is that because there’d be so much fuel that it gets too cold for the exhaust to ignite? I’m using 91 octane to get the most of the flammability. From what I read, the higher the octane, the cleaner the burn but the lower the flammability 

You need a lot of heat, but you also need excess fuel. Excess fuel will cool everything down, so its a bit of a catch 22. Being NA you are going to have far less heat than a turbo so what you want might just not really be easily possible unless you get the exhaust temps very high before hand.

[Andre34]

18 hours ago, Puffwagon said:

Don't run 91 octane, you're better off putting your dick in a blender. Seriously tho, the stock timing map for a na territory is literally right on the verge of knocking, even when you run 98 octane fuel. Running 91 will be losing a bunch of power due to the knock sensors pulling timing out.

I wouldn’t run 91 on a car I actually care about. The territory is purely for playing around and learning on. Later on I might try to tune it so it runs 91 better and hits knock less often 

[Andre34]

2 hours ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

You need a lot of heat, but you also need excess fuel. Excess fuel will cool everything down, so its a bit of a catch 22. Being NA you are going to have far less heat than a turbo so what you want might just not really be easily possible unless you get the exhaust temps very high before hand.

That makes sense. My next job might have to be to find a way to keep the exhaust hot somehow. I think I’m reaching the limits of the flames with NA. I could always redline it for a while to get the exhaust hot and then see what results I get but I don’t want to break my oil pump gears.

 

is it the headders that needs to stay hot or is it the actual exhaust?

[Roland@pcmtec]

27 minutes ago, Andre34 said:

That makes sense. My next job might have to be to find a way to keep the exhaust hot somehow. I think I’m reaching the limits of the flames with NA. I could always redline it for a while to get the exhaust hot and then see what results I get but I don’t want to break my oil pump gears.

If this is something you drive on the street then we can't condone this. But if you are using it at track meets etc why not just put a proper flame kit on it? Eg drill a hole in the exhaust with another injector/or even just a valve to let air in? You could do a vacuum controlled valve, so on decel the valve opens allow oxygen into the exhaust.

Look up EGR valves from other vehicles, I suspect you could repurpose one from a wrecker for this quite easily. Basically you could plumb it up to induce an exhaust leak on vacuum (decel) to allow complete combustion. You might be able to find vacuum operated ones, or use a MAC valve to do the same thing.

One other thing I forgot to suggest is cam timing. Play with the intake/exhaust cam timing and datalog it also (as in decel it may not follow the main map). Also you could potentially adjust the injector spray offset so it injects into an open valve, I'm not sure what this will do but it would be fun to play with.

Most the tuners hate this kind of thing, as it gives the car enthusiast groups a bad rap, and it will attract police attention, so please only do this at track meets etc.  

27 minutes ago, Andre34 said:

is it the headders that needs to stay hot or is it the actual exhaust?

Both. Eg try getting your ECT up to 110c by really loading the engine up for some time (eg drive with the brakes on etc) at high rpm. It will make a huge difference. Even just inducing an idle air leak (so it runs -30c timing at idle) will get your ECT up, terrible for fuel economy and generally everything, but it would work. You can go lower than -30c as well if you change the min spark clip. You could try really silly values like -90 etc, this might induce pre-ignition or combustion in the intake though, so beware.

Also there is over temperature protection on the exhaust/cat, at least the turbo cars have it where they will run 10:1 after a really long high load run. Check that this isn't happening by datalogging your commanded lambda/LTFT. Extended rich conditions where it is not burning in the exhaust will dramatically drop the exhaust temperatures.

If you want to get really hacky and don't want to fork out for the multi tune, you can wire your IAT to a switch to make the car think its extremely hot/cold and mess up the spark/fueling conditions. This is how people used to do anti-lag on a switch.

[Andre34]

1 hour ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

If this is something you drive on the street then we can't condone this. But if you are using it at track meets etc why not just put a proper flame kit on it? Eg drill a hole in the exhaust with another injector/or even just a valve to let air in? You could do a vacuum controlled valve, so on decel the valve opens allow oxygen into the exhaust.

Look up EGR valves from other vehicles, I suspect you could repurpose one from a wrecker for this quite easily. Basically you could plumb it up to induce an exhaust leak on vacuum (decel) to allow complete combustion. You might be able to find vacuum operated ones, or use a MAC valve to do the same thing.

One other thing I forgot to suggest is cam timing. Play with the intake/exhaust cam timing and datalog it also (as in decel it may not follow the main map). Also you could potentially adjust the injector spray offset so it injects into an open valve, I'm not sure what this will do but it would be fun to play with.

Most the tuners hate this kind of thing, as it gives the car enthusiast groups a bad rap, and it will attract police attention, so please only do this at track meets etc.  

Both. Eg try getting your ECT up to 110c by really loading the engine up for some time (eg drive with the brakes on etc) at high rpm. It will make a huge difference. Even just inducing an idle air leak (so it runs -30c timing at idle) will get your ECT up, terrible for fuel economy and generally everything, but it would work. You can go lower than -30c as well if you change the min spark clip. You could try really silly values like -90 etc, this might induce pre-ignition or combustion in the intake though, so beware.

Also there is over temperature protection on the exhaust/cat, at least the turbo cars have it where they will run 10:1 after a really long high load run. Check that this isn't happening by datalogging your commanded lambda/LTFT. Extended rich conditions where it is not burning in the exhaust will dramatically drop the exhaust temperatures.

If you want to get really hacky and don't want to fork out for the multi tune, you can wire your IAT to a switch to make the car think its extremely hot/cold and mess up the spark/fueling conditions. This is how people used to do anti-lag on a switch.

Ok awesome. Thanks for the write up. I’ll be going through all of these suggestions.

 

don’t worry, it’s for leisure purposes only, not street use. End up running a pretty much stock tune for the street. 
 

with the hole in the exhaust, should I do it in the front or back? I was thinking since I removed the rear o2 sensor from my tune, can I repurpose that hole or will I need a bigger one?

[Andre34]

2 hours ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

If this is something you drive on the street then we can't condone this. But if you are using it at track meets etc why not just put a proper flame kit on it? Eg drill a hole in the exhaust with another injector/or even just a valve to let air in? You could do a vacuum controlled valve, so on decel the valve opens allow oxygen into the exhaust.

Look up EGR valves from other vehicles, I suspect you could repurpose one from a wrecker for this quite easily. Basically you could plumb it up to induce an exhaust leak on vacuum (decel) to allow complete combustion. You might be able to find vacuum operated ones, or use a MAC valve to do the same thing.

One other thing I forgot to suggest is cam timing. Play with the intake/exhaust cam timing and datalog it also (as in decel it may not follow the main map). Also you could potentially adjust the injector spray offset so it injects into an open valve, I'm not sure what this will do but it would be fun to play with.

Most the tuners hate this kind of thing, as it gives the car enthusiast groups a bad rap, and it will attract police attention, so please only do this at track meets etc.  

Both. Eg try getting your ECT up to 110c by really loading the engine up for some time (eg drive with the brakes on etc) at high rpm. It will make a huge difference. Even just inducing an idle air leak (so it runs -30c timing at idle) will get your ECT up, terrible for fuel economy and generally everything, but it would work. You can go lower than -30c as well if you change the min spark clip. You could try really silly values like -90 etc, this might induce pre-ignition or combustion in the intake though, so beware.

Also there is over temperature protection on the exhaust/cat, at least the turbo cars have it where they will run 10:1 after a really long high load run. Check that this isn't happening by datalogging your commanded lambda/LTFT. Extended rich conditions where it is not burning in the exhaust will dramatically drop the exhaust temperatures.

If you want to get really hacky and don't want to fork out for the multi tune, you can wire your IAT to a switch to make the car think its extremely hot/cold and mess up the spark/fueling conditions. This is how people used to do anti-lag on a switch.

Ok awesome. Thanks for the write up. I’ll be going through all of these suggestions.

 

don’t worry, it’s for leisure purposes only, not street use. End up running a pretty much stock tune for the street. 
 

with the hole in the exhaust, should I do it in the front or back? I was thinking since I removed the rear o2 sensor from my tune, can I repurpose that hole or will I need a bigger one?

 

 

also, I’m planning to get workshop for multiple cars eventually down the line but for now I’m sticking with pro until I really run out of ability with the parameters.

 

i might give that IAT switch trick a go to see what happens with the pulse width and slope changes.

 

With the injector offset, how can I know when the valve will be open, is there something I can datalog or would it be experimentation?

 

I’ll give an update once I get a chance to try these things

[BeerTurbo]

i tried for a small amount of times to make my drifty boi ute pop a flame on decel. i kinga gave up.

I also tried years later to make my Barra r31 do it, without success.

but then after adding ex gate and water meth, it would just throw a huge blue flame out of the gate.

https://www.instagram.com/tv/Cd7YxRYJDwT/?igshid=MTc4MmM1YmI2Ng%3D%3D&fbclid=IwAR3_jHs4GhruDElVYNqwFKfoA9QibhZe4Q4ITLz-rq17hFNwI-xb8LYqEIw

 

so you gota be thinking there is a flame in the exhaust, but its prob near to the engine.

its hard to make it flame out the rear of all your mufflers and what not.

 

i kinda thought having a chamberd muffler at the rear, with a spark plug close to the end , running rich, would give you flame. you need a way to ignite the unburnet fuel closer to the area where your trying to see it.

[Andre34]

7 hours ago, BeerTurbo said:

i tried for a small amount of times to make my drifty boi ute pop a flame on decel. i kinga gave up.

I also tried years later to make my Barra r31 do it, without success.

but then after adding ex gate and water meth, it would just throw a huge blue flame out of the gate.

https://www.instagram.com/tv/Cd7YxRYJDwT/?igshid=MTc4MmM1YmI2Ng%3D%3D&fbclid=IwAR3_jHs4GhruDElVYNqwFKfoA9QibhZe4Q4ITLz-rq17hFNwI-xb8LYqEIw

 

so you gota be thinking there is a flame in the exhaust, but its prob near to the engine.

its hard to make it flame out the rear of all your mufflers and what not.

 

i kinda thought having a chamberd muffler at the rear, with a spark plug close to the end , running rich, would give you flame. you need a way to ignite the unburnet fuel closer to the area where your trying to see it.

Damn that meth flame is wild.

 

yeah it looks like the biggest problem is heat. When I’m free, I’ll try getting the exhaust real hot then seeing what happens with a huge fuel dump. Hopefully the exhaust is hot enough to ignite the fuel instead of evaporate it.
 

that spark plug trick would definitely work but I can’t help feeling like it’s cheating.

[MrForsty]

Has anyone tried messing around with shooting flames on limiter?

On 7/18/2023 at 4:20 PM, Roland@pcmtec said:

I'm sure you guys know what I meant. Add lots of fuel. By using injector slopes you get around all the min lambda clips etc

Could something like this work for shooting flames while feeding it on limiter? Definitely not good for the motor but would look cool

[Andre34]

38 minutes ago, MrForsty said:

Has anyone tried messing around with shooting flames on limiter?

Could something like this work for shooting flames while feeding it on limiter? Definitely not good for the motor but would look cool

Hey, it’s definitely doable. I played around with the spark and fuel at the point I wanted limiter and this is what I ended up with so far. I didn’t need to do any changes to injectors. This was just open loop fueling and spark. Check out Roland’s post about 2step to get a starting point and go from there.

 

My next goal is to try and get a flame to linger after I release my foot from the pedal. I need to learn how to datalog properly to see though but I think the problem is something related to open/close loop fuel. 

 

 

[MrForsty]

1 minute ago, Andre34 said:

Hey, it’s definitely doable. I played around with the spark and fuel at the point I wanted limiter and this is what I ended up with so far. I didn’t need to do any changes to injectors. This was just open loop fueling and spark. Check out Roland’s post about 2step to get a starting point and go from there.

 

My next goal is to try and get a flame to linger after I release my foot from the pedal. I need to learn how to datalog properly to see though but I think the problem is something related to open/close loop fuel. 

 

Could you have this effect or something close to it while drifting/skidding on limiter?

[Andre34]

Just now, MrForsty said:

Could you have this effect or something close to it while drifting/skidding on limiter?

Yes. I’ve got it set at 4800rpm and I’ve got my shifts happening at 4900rpm. I get flames between each shift when I keep my foot flat. The same would happen if you had your car in 1st gear while doing a burnout.

Not the best idea for drifting since it’s such an aggressive limiter. It won’t be smooth like the oem one. I’m sure you can tweak it to be smoother though.

[BeerTurbo]

8 minutes ago, Andre34 said:

Hey, it’s definitely doable. I played around with the spark and fuel at the point I wanted limiter and this is what I ended up with so far. I didn’t need to do any changes to injectors. This was just open loop fueling and spark. Check out Roland’s post about 2step to get a starting point and go from there.

 

My next goal is to try and get a flame to linger after I release my foot from the pedal. I need to learn how to datalog properly to see though but I think the problem is something related to open/close loop fuel. 

IMG_6416.MOV 64.74 MB · 0 downloads  

 

What spark and lambada settings is that mad flame

[MrForsty]

16 hours ago, Andre34 said:

Yes. I’ve got it set at 4800rpm and I’ve got my shifts happening at 4900rpm. I get flames between each shift when I keep my foot flat. The same would happen if you had your car in 1st gear while doing a burnout.

Not the best idea for drifting since it’s such an aggressive limiter. It won’t be smooth like the oem one. I’m sure you can tweak it to be smoother though.

So I could set it up so that if I'm flat foot pinned in a corner no lifting and no clutch work, it will still continuously shoot big fuck off flames on limiter?

[Andre34]

4 hours ago, MrForsty said:

So I could set it up so that if I'm flat foot pinned in a corner no lifting and no clutch work, it will still continuously shoot big fuck off flames on limiter?

Yes. This is a video of the limiter while in gear and then a shift afterwards

 

 

[Andre34]

20 hours ago, BeerTurbo said:

What spark and lambada settings is that mad flame

This is -70 degrees and 0.65 lambda

[MrForsty]

23 hours ago, Andre34 said:

This is -70 degrees and 0.65 lambda

What RPM is your limiter set at?

[BeerTurbo]

45 minutes ago, MrForsty said:

What RPM is your limiter set at?

I think hes not going to reach limiter at -70 spark.

[MrForsty]

10 minutes ago, BeerTurbo said:

I think hes not going to reach limiter at -70 spark.

He said he was at limiter in the video, What the limiter was set to is the question aha. Could be set to like 4k

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by MrForsty

[BeerTurbo]

Just now, MrForsty said:

He said he was at limiter in the video, What the limiter was set to is the question aha. Could be set to like 4k

 

I read it as he has a spark n fuel hole just before shift points.

I think the only limiter situation that would work here would be a sparkcut only. 

[MrForsty]

1 minute ago, BeerTurbo said:

I read it as he has a spark n fuel hole just before shift points.

I think the only limiter situation that would work here would be a sparkcut only. 

Possibly, Hopefully not aha. Wanting to get a limiter on my car that just shoots big fuck off flames aha while drifting on limi

[MrForsty]

7 minutes ago, BeerTurbo said:

I read it as he has a spark n fuel hole just before shift points.

I think the only limiter situation that would work here would be a sparkcut only. 

Super odd but posted my last comment twice lol

Edited August 4, 2023 by MrForsty

[Roland@pcmtec]

1 hour ago, BeerTurbo said:

I think hes not going to reach limiter at -70 spark.

If you set a 50rpm breakpoint it would work. Eg normal timing at 6000 rpm and -70 at 6050 rpm. Then as soon as the torque drops off it will drop rpm, hit normal timing and effectively bounce around between that 50 rpm hysterisis.

We do similar things with anti lag and stall converters, find the max slip rpm and set the spark retard to start exactly at that point. It works like a P only control loop and is actually a very simple and effective method to control torque. You can do the same with cam timing/fueling as well. Eg at 6000 -> 6050 go from 0.8 (or whatever lambda you are running) to 0.6.

We are trialling a proper spark cut also. @Darryl@pcmtec is adding it as one last present for the Falcon Custom OS this year. I believe it is already working as a proof of concept, it just needs generalising across all OSIDs.

Tuners will hate us for adding it, but I know you guys will love it. Just beware, this will break engines if you aren't careful, ignition cut can cause valve float and backfires through the intake inducing pre-ignition/bent rods. Your valve train needs to be upgraded to sustain it.

[Andre34]

Sorry for the confusion guys. When I say limiter, I refer to the one created by spark cut (-70 deg timing). To answer the question about my engine limiter (the factory fuel cut limiter) I have it set to 9000 so it’s not doing anything. 
 

Roland is right, I have normal timing at 4800rpm and then spark cut at 5000rpm so it bounces around instead of holding itself.

Also, to elaborate… my setup is normal timing up until 4800rpm and then -70 degrees on all loads at 5000rpm. I then have very rich fuel at over aprox 80% load on 4800rpm and higher (to achieve the bigger flames) I did a very slight change on the exhaust cam timing just to help the spark cut but I don’t think it’s really needed.

(be careful if you’re doing this on a turbo. There’s a bit more to it in order to avoid overboosting)

 

 

Nooooo!! I finally got the spark cut working mint when I could’ve just waited for the PCMTEC release of it 😭. That’s awesome though, it’ll make life so much easier if I ever want to do spark cut on another car. It will be cool to compare the aggressiveness of the customOS vs DIY spark cuts 

[BeerTurbo]

Just now, Andre34 said:

Sorry for the confusion guys. When I say limiter, I refer to the one created by spark cut (-70 deg timing). To answer the question about my engine limiter (the factory fuel cut limiter) I have it set to 9000 so it’s not doing anything. 
 

Roland is right, I have normal timing at 4800rpm and then spark cut at 5000rpm so it bounces around instead of holding itself.

Also, to elaborate… my setup is normal timing up until 4800rpm and then -70 degrees on all loads at 5000rpm. I then have very rich fuel at over aprox 80% load on 4800rpm and higher (to achieve the bigger flames) I did a very slight change on the exhaust cam timing just to help the spark cut but I don’t think it’s really needed.

(be careful if you’re doing this on a turbo. There’s a bit more to it in order to avoid overboosting)

 

 

Nooooo!! I finally got the spark cut working mint when I could’ve just waited for the PCMTEC release of it 😭. That’s awesome though, it’ll make life so much easier if I ever want to do spark cut on another car. It will be cool to compare the aggressiveness of the customOS vs DIY spark cuts 

Do you have you spark min clip at -70 to0?

[Andre34]

19 minutes ago, BeerTurbo said:

Do you have you spark min clip at -70 to0?

I have min at -90

[BeerTurbo]

37 minutes ago, Andre34 said:

I have min at -90

Your wild

[MrForsty]

1 hour ago, Andre34 said:

Sorry for the confusion guys. When I say limiter, I refer to the one created by spark cut (-70 deg timing). To answer the question about my engine limiter (the factory fuel cut limiter) I have it set to 9000 so it’s not doing anything. 
 

Roland is right, I have normal timing at 4800rpm and then spark cut at 5000rpm so it bounces around instead of holding itself.

Also, to elaborate… my setup is normal timing up until 4800rpm and then -70 degrees on all loads at 5000rpm. I then have very rich fuel at over aprox 80% load on 4800rpm and higher (to achieve the bigger flames) I did a very slight change on the exhaust cam timing just to help the spark cut but I don’t think it’s really needed.

Before I go trying to figure this out aha, Could I set it to have normal timing at 5800 and then the -70 degrees at 6000? & would it keep relatively enough power in the motor to slide the car while shooting the big flames?

[Andre34]

45 minutes ago, MrForsty said:

Before I go trying to figure this out aha, Could I set it to have normal timing at 5800 and then the -70 degrees at 6000? & would it keep relatively enough power in the motor to slide the car while shooting the big flames?

Yeah you can. I’d get it working at a low rpm first then set it up high. Beware of your oil pump gears at that rpm though. But yeah, just figure out what rpm your ecu fuel cut limiter is at and match it with the spark cut and set the fuel cut limiter higher so it doesn’t take effect. Make sure you remember to do your park, neutral and drive limiters higher too, otherwise the spark cut wont be effective

 

When I first had a go at mine, I started at 3000rpm and then increased it when I was happy with the “limiter” behaviour

55 minutes ago, BeerTurbo said:

Your wild

Hahaha yeah I know. If it breaks the motor, I’m happy. I want to have a go at doing the first awd boss260 territory. I haven’t seen it done yet, only rwd because of the front diff clearance

[Andre34]

The only thing I’m stuck with now is to achieve flames after letting off the foot. I’m trying to make it similar to the one in this video. I’ve already tried spark retard at low load with 0.3 lambda as well as retarded decel spark but no luck. Anyone have any ideas?

[BeerTurbo]

Just now, Andre34 said:

The only thing I’m stuck with now is to achieve flames after letting off the foot. I’m trying to make it similar to the one in this video. I’ve already tried spark retard at low load with 0.3 lambda as well as retarded decel spark but no luck. Anyone have any ideas?

IMG_6464.MOV

I had issues to. I figgured it was issue with cutting away the fresh air?.

Is there a throttle body min clip vs rpm. To keep it cracked?

 

[Puffwagon]

This might do something auF0076

Look into the idle and dashpot settings, that's more than likely where to look to keep the throttle slightly open at all times.

[BeerTurbo]

that reminds me. i did set a mates coon up on a spark cut limiter.

makes this funny noise on limiter and does little flames when hot.

pretty sure from memory, the lambada was around 0.82 on limiter. throttle ability disabled. full authority to pull spark. limiter like 5800 fuel cut limiter 6200. spark tq retard after 50 percent was wild enough to hit min clip... but i never changed min clip cause im not wild like mr -70. 

 

[Andre34]

2 hours ago, Puffwagon said:

This might do something auF0076

Look into the idle and dashpot settings, that's more than likely where to look to keep the throttle slightly open at all times.

I tried both but it didn’t do it for me. I tried min angle at 10 and 20 but no luck. It made sense though but maybe I need to play with it more

[Andre34]

15 minutes ago, BeerTurbo said:

that reminds me. i did set a mates coon up on a spark cut limiter.

makes this funny noise on limiter and does little flames when hot.

pretty sure from memory, the lambada was around 0.82 on limiter. throttle ability disabled. full authority to pull spark. limiter like 5800 fuel cut limiter 6200. spark tq retard after 50 percent was wild enough to hit min clip... but i never changed min clip cause im not wild like mr -70. 

 

While playing with throttle position, I tried 0.85 instead of 0.65 fuel at limiter and found the bangs were much louder. Flames were still big, about 3cm smaller than rich so I might run that leaner fuel now.  
 

Getting ready to win the next rev battle my track does. It would be so funny to see an na territory beat the 2js and the rbs 😂

[BeerTurbo]

18 minutes ago, Andre34 said:

I tried both but it didn’t do it for me. I tried min angle at 10 and 20 but no luck. It made sense though but maybe I need to play with it more

when you get it to work id say u want to see the throttle position at idle, then set a number just below that. if it actually does hit a min clip that's enough to free-rev the engine it might not actually decelerate.

 

[BeerTurbo]

17 minutes ago, Andre34 said:

While playing with throttle position, I tried 0.85 instead of 0.65 fuel at limiter and found the bangs were much louder. Flames were still big, about 3cm smaller than rich so I might run that leaner fuel now.  
 

Getting ready to win the next rev battle my track does. It would be so funny to see an na territory beat the 2js and the rbs 😂

back when i first started playing pcmtech i was trying to get a fg style zf gearshift in my teritory. now you can make it cylinder cut but it just dosent have the refinement of the fg so its not smooth.

anyway, i had the fuel on shift setting at like 0.7 forever and never heard a peep from it. one day i changed it to around 0.88 from memory and it did the gunshots pop on gearchange. so my theroy is the exhaust still needs decent fuel and air, if its got to much of one it wont combust - just like the engine

[jazzabrah]

Hello just wondering what spark table you have done the spark cut in 

[Roland@pcmtec]

It's not possible to do an actual spark cut. But you can do silly things like -90 deg of timing.