Ghost cam

[richardpalinkas]

Anyone mucked around with some ghost cam tuning? Or anyone interested in giving away their secrets lol

[Roland@pcmtec]

Yes however we ran into issues with the auto vs manual working differently. From my initial testing I got a reverse ghost cam, eg when you touched the throttle it went lumpy, at idle it was normal.I haven't gone much further as I ran out of time. I know Pitlane performance appear to have gotten it working.

Post up what you have tried and your results to date.

 

 

 

[richardpalinkas]

havent tried anything as of yet but did find this, obviously someone worked it out in hp tuners

 

 

[Roland@pcmtec]

Afaik none of the tables required are available in other software, currently to date they only have the max overlap mapped not the actual desired overlap/angle. Most likely did it another way and just used hptuners to log it. 

It's possible they have just physically locked the cam in that position as well. 

[ebbarra]

hey guys im about to attempt trying to make one how ever i got a snag i found in the calibration. im unsure if its just a typo in the description or not

im still trying to work out what things i have to modify but i just want to clear this first.

i noticed this
ID    Name    Value    Units    Description
auF16577    Max VCT RPM    6500    RPM    Maximum RPM at which VCT will be enabled

does this mean the vct is disabled below 6500?

i compared it to the stock calibration and it was the same.

its a haee4s9 program.

 

[Roland@pcmtec]

It is saying above 6500rpm the VCT won't be enabled. The standard rev limit doesn't go above this afaik which makes sense to me. 

[richardpalinkas]

let us know if you work it out, keen to see some results

[Kristos]

Roland can you please point us in the right direction?

What tables should we be looking at modifying? 

[Roland@pcmtec]

There are lots of tables. Depends if you are BF or FG but I would start here.

Whilst on load, eg not in closed loop idle/coast the following table is used:

If you put ~40 in all of the lower load and rpm tables you can get a lumpy cam providing you are touching the throttle, as soon as you let off the throttle it will go back to a normal smooth idle. Kind of like a reverse ghost cam.

The rest of the items are in here:

 

There are also some scalars here which influence the base starting angle of the cams

 

Then there are these tables which are used on cold start (which is why your car sounds much louder when cold as the cam timing is quite different)

auF16563

auF0098

auF103

 

The next thing to understand is how the cams are controlled. Basically the PCM controls the intake cam via the commanded angles and modifiers (temp, idle, load etc). The exhaust cam then follows the intake cam with an offset. So if you command and angle of X degrees for the intake cam you will see Y degrees for the exhaust cam. If you change the intake cam position by 10 degrees you will now see intake = x + 10 and exhaust = y + 10. Eg both cams have been offset by just modifying the intake cam. Knowing this you need to modify the max retard and also the various offsets.

The next thing to know is there are various control mode. The main three are cold start, on load (eg using the throttle) and idle/coast.

The idle/coast seems to the hardest to figure out.

From my testing I found that I could influence the camshaft timing at idle via auF0103 (BF Manual HACCKGA strategy). Eg by setting the entire table to 60 degrees I logged both cams at 50 degrees, if I set it to -50 I logged both at -50. If i set the table to the stock 5 degees I logged intake at 7 degrees and exhaust at -7 degrees. As soon as you go past ~20 degrees the cams are the same as each other, I'm guessing something is capping the overlap angle somewhere.

Anyway I would play with auF0103 and then play with all the max retard/max overlap tables to see if you can get the exhaust cam to move at idle independently. From my testing so far I could not however I believe Pitlane did manage to do so.

Another item to look at is auto vs manual, the behaviour seems to be slightly different between the two.

[dylbott94]

Has anyone got any info on ghost cam in ba na falcon if bf settings will work or not ?

Edited February 14, 2021 by dylbott94

[Roland@pcmtec]

On 2/14/2021 at 7:19 PM, dylbott94 said:

Has anyone got any info on ghost cam in ba na falcon if bf settings will work or not ?

https://forum.pcmtec.com/topic/561-howto-full-independent-vct-cam-control-in-ba-6-cyl/

[Dodgy]

hey guys not a tuner but would appreciate it if i put up my file can some one work there magic on it and give me a lumpy ghost cam at idle . i dont mind paying for your time and efforts id just like it sorted properly  thanks for ya time guys  

HAEDJJ4 fg blue.tec

[Puffwagon]

Last time this was brought up I helped a guy. He sent me files claiming they were licensed when they in fact weren't licensed, only renamed. He also asked me to license them and send them to him so he could pay me later.

After stuffing around for over 2 hours going through his files, modifying them, and replying to pm's, he stopped replying and needless to say didn't send the money he offered.

Just a heads up to other forum members that get asked for tuning work.

[Dodgy]

2 minutes ago, Puffwagon said:

Last time this was brought up I helped a guy. He sent me files claiming they were licensed when they in fact weren't licensed, only renamed. He also asked me to license them and send them to him so he could pay me later.

After stuffing around for over 2 hours going through his files, modifying them, and replying to pm's, he stopped replying and needless to say didn't send the money he offered.

Just a heads up to other forum members that get asked for tuning work.

can see they are licensed mate 

 

[Puffwagon]

Nothing personal mate, just putting my experience out there.

Just go through the thread, follow the steps and you should have it sorted.

[Roland@pcmtec]

4 hours ago, Dodgy said:

hey guys not a tuner but would appreciate it if i put up my file can some one work there magic on it and give me a lumpy ghost cam at idle . i dont mind paying for your time and efforts id just like it sorted properly  thanks for ya time guys  

HAEDJJ4 fg blue.tec 932.69 kB · 3 downloads

Have you tried following the guide? It is very difficult to do remotely as it needs some trial and error to get it as the owner desires. 

[Dodgy]

4 minutes ago, Roland@pcmtec said:

Have you tried following the guide? It is very difficult to do remotely as it needs some trial and error to get it as the owner desires. 

no mate i get lost in the numbers , dyslexic . its all good il sort it one day  

[Jay]

On 6/2/2018 at 7:09 PM, Roland@pcmtec said:

There are lots of tables. Depends if you are BF or FG but I would start here.

Whilst on load, eg not in closed loop idle/coast the following table is used:

If you put ~40 in all of the lower load and rpm tables you can get a lumpy cam providing you are touching the throttle, as soon as you let off the throttle it will go back to a normal smooth idle. Kind of like a reverse ghost cam.

The rest of the items are in here:

 

There are also some scalars here which influence the base starting angle of the cams

 

Then there are these tables which are used on cold start (which is why your car sounds much louder when cold as the cam timing is quite different)

auF16563

auF0098

auF103

 

The next thing to understand is how the cams are controlled. Basically the PCM controls the intake cam via the commanded angles and modifiers (temp, idle, load etc). The exhaust cam then follows the intake cam with an offset. So if you command and angle of X degrees for the intake cam you will see Y degrees for the exhaust cam. If you change the intake cam position by 10 degrees you will now see intake = x + 10 and exhaust = y + 10. Eg both cams have been offset by just modifying the intake cam. Knowing this you need to modify the max retard and also the various offsets.

The next thing to know is there are various control mode. The main three are cold start, on load (eg using the throttle) and idle/coast.

The idle/coast seems to the hardest to figure out.

From my testing I found that I could influence the camshaft timing at idle via auF0103 (BF Manual HACCKGA strategy). Eg by setting the entire table to 60 degrees I logged both cams at 50 degrees, if I set it to -50 I logged both at -50. If i set the table to the stock 5 degees I logged intake at 7 degrees and exhaust at -7 degrees. As soon as you go past ~20 degrees the cams are the same as each other, I'm guessing something is capping the overlap angle somewhere.

Quote

Anyway I would play with auF0103 and then play with all the max retard/max overlap tables to see if you can get the exhaust cam to move at idle independently. From my testing so far I could not however I believe Pitlane did manage to do so.

 

Would playing with this help in stopping the car from dying as soon as you clutch in when coasting to a complete stop? i cant quite wrap my head around what to play with to stop this. Perhaps bumping up (auF2549) Engine Idle Speed Minimum from such a low value could stop it from dropping well below the 600rpm where the -30 deg of overlap is supposed to bump the revs back up? I have had no issue getting my lumpy idle settings to where i like it, just cant get it to not die when coming to a stop.

any help would be much appreciated

[Roland@pcmtec]

What are your fuel trims doing? I find the best method is to disable LTFT when the ghost cam is enabled and make sure it's not super rich at idle. 

You could raise the -30 to 750 rpm as well so it undoes the lumpy cam quicker. 

Also if you add the spark oscillation to the mix (putting a large gain in the spark feedback gain curve) this also assists with stalling issues as it instantly pegs the spark at MBT timing when it starts to stall. 

[Jay]

i have ltft disabled and in auF0172 its at about lambda 1.02 at 1000rpm which is where my idle is set as per the reccomended idle settings. i can perhaps attach my tune file if it helps. would having the -30 at 750rpm help it kick the rpm back up sooner so it doesn't drop revs and die?

[Roland@pcmtec]

With 30 deg of overlap you'll have a false lean reading due to unburnt fuel/oxygen going out the exhaust. So you actually want to run it a bit leaner at idle. One way to find the sweet spot is disable the closed loop spark feedback (gain of 0) and monitor your idle rpm, lean it out and when the rpm stops rising you have found the best combustion mixture for stability. Make sure your MBT/Borderline timing is flat across the idle rpm range for this test.

You want the cam timing to go from 30 to -30 as quick as possible to induce the kick. Eg at say 650rpm you have -30 and at 700rpm you have 30, this will mean the cam swings back as fast as it possibly can when the idle rpm drops. You'll need to adjust the rpm breakpoints to achieve this.

I have never had a single stall in our test car when cold hot or warm using the settings found in this file. Trims are within 1% without the ghost cam and the car is on E85 with ID1000s. Car cranks first go in 5c weather with E85 as well. So if you can get your normal tune as good as that it will definitely help.

 

PCMFEGA as read.tec

 

[Jay]

okay ill try these out in the coming days. ill try out changing the rpm it drops to -30 first and then if that doesn't work will try your other recomendations.

cheers

[Jay]

On 6/13/2021 at 10:07 AM, Roland@pcmtec said:

With 30 deg of overlap you'll have a false lean reading due to unburnt fuel/oxygen going out the exhaust. So you actually want to run it a bit leaner at idle. One way to find the sweet spot is disable the closed loop spark feedback (gain of 0) and monitor your idle rpm, lean it out and when the rpm stops rising you have found the best combustion mixture for stability. Make sure your MBT/Borderline timing is flat across the idle rpm range for this test.

You want the cam timing to go from 30 to -30 as quick as possible to induce the kick. Eg at say 650rpm you have -30 and at 700rpm you have 30, this will mean the cam swings back as fast as it possibly can when the idle rpm drops. You'll need to adjust the rpm breakpoints to achieve this.

I have never had a single stall in our test car when cold hot or warm using the settings found in this file. Trims are within 1% without the ghost cam and the car is on E85 with ID1000s. Car cranks first go in 5c weather with E85 as well. So if you can get your normal tune as good as that it will definitely help.

PCMFEGA as read.tecUnavailable

 

Coming back to this, I've played around with my settings and I've gotten it to no longer stall when coming to a stop. Issue was my dumbass forgot to raise the idle rpm in gear and my idle adder (ect) table was too low. Now I have it all sorted I've come across another small problem which is easily driven around but now at low speed coasting in say a carpark the throttle has a tendency to cut in and out. What would I be looking at to solve this? 

Cheers

[Roland@pcmtec]

What does "cut in and cut out" mean 

[Jay]

On 6/13/2021 at 10:07 AM, Roland@pcmtec said:

With 30 deg of overlap you'll have a false lean reading due to unburnt fuel/oxygen going out the exhaust. So you actually want to run it a bit leaner at idle. One way to find the sweet spot is disable the closed loop spark feedback (gain of 0) and monitor your idle rpm, lean it out and when the rpm stops rising you have found the best combustion mixture for stability. Make sure your MBT/Borderline timing is flat across the idle rpm range for this test.

You want the cam timing to go from 30 to -30 as quick as possible to induce the kick. Eg at say 650rpm you have -30 and at 700rpm you have 30, this will mean the cam swings back as fast as it possibly can when the idle rpm drops. You'll need to adjust the rpm breakpoints to achieve this.

I have never had a single stall in our test car when cold hot or warm using the settings found in this file. Trims are within 1% without the ghost cam and the car is on E85 with ID1000s. Car cranks first go in 5c weather with E85 as well. So if you can get your normal tune as good as that it will definitely help.

PCMFEGA as read.tecUnavailable

 

My throttle input at low rpm low speed crawling is like the throttle turns on and off. Eg I'm on throttle and then the car drops revs and throttle input and then all of a sudden it comes back on and jolts the car

 

[MasterBates]

I think this is one of those ‘stupid’ questions, and I guess I’m more after confirmation of what I think is going on anyway. 
I’ve been screwing around with this and a few other things, and have found, when it’s ‘camming’, I can hear what appears to me to be the exhaust cam gear ‘working’. Doesn’t sound like the timing chain ‘rattling’ as such. Source of the noise appears to be right at the exhaust cam gear. Is this normal?
My engine has quite a few k’s on it, and I don’t really know the history of it. I am going to replace the timing chain, but that’s still a little while off, as the ‘special upgrade’ price was to tempting to pass up

[Roland@pcmtec]

It is easy enough to test by locking the cams in position in the software and seeing if anything changes. It is common for these cars to lose chunks of the timing chain guide over time so it could just be the chain itself, this is usually more pronounced by the engine vibrating (which it will during a ghost cam opposed to a normal idle).

[RACEWORX]

@Roland@pcmtec

how do you lock cams

[NickIsNotSus]

Sorry, bringing up an old topic here..

Playing around with ghost cams in FG m1 g6et.  i found a nice idle sweet spot but in drive it rocks back and forth is there any way to stop or or reduce this while maintaining a nice lumpy idle ? 

cheers 

[NickIsNotSus]

 This is the idle i like but it only sounds like this cold. (think this was popping in the exhaust but stops warmed up

 

this next video is 31 deg over lap 800 idle ... my issue is the second part of the video or is this something i have to deal with idling in drive?