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TCC Tip In Boost or minimum pressure


hjtrbo
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Hi all,

In the GM world I can set a minimum allowable TCC pressure and also modify the boost ramp based on load. Searching through the many thousands of parameters now to see what might look promising but just wondering on the off chance someone might have been down this road before and would care to share the table(s) name(s). FG Mk1 XR6T

What I am trying to do is on tip in have the converter already sufficiently locked that it does not break free momentarily until the boost ramp catches it. Please see screen shot where you can see the converter momentarily slip. Normally I wouldn't worry about this, but it just happens to coincide with a shitty drone spot in my crap Chinese exhaust so it does my head in.

Ta

 

 

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Tried all sorts of shit today. Everything is the same. Only thing left that I can think of is to lie to the transmission about how much torque the engine is making but I'm a bit reserved on doing that as I'm thinking that'll muck up heaps of stuff that will need to be recalibrated.

These were the tables I hit today. Put everything from conservative numbers to wild numbers. Every single log was identical.

ZF02643    Minimum line pressure requested by TCC2
ZF01033    Correction factor of converter amplification
ZF02004    Converter amplification
ZF01001    Valve function for TCC pressure
ZF00526    TCC input torque offset

Capture.PNG.e0dcf58607fb12906a89037f049c342f.PNG

 

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Even the last column in each gear? Thought we left that alone to avoid high load lock up. Currently doing this.

image.png.4445bf6e965df598a532856ac01b6c94.png

 

It's the roll into the throttle that I'm having trouble with. Need more offset pressure like a can do with GM.

Another example from today. If you look at the marker, I'm already locked but it breaks loose on throttle tip in.

image.thumb.png.55a2bdc6d1aab2576288ab7d21e2eff9.png

 

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I think that might be all you need. There appears to be a TCC input torque offset table. I'm not sure what this would do however. ZF00526

There is also a lot of interesting scalars here

image.png.e6807ec62818c223e377f2e585c5dc7b.png

It might be for NVH reasons they simply do not lock the converter at decel/light throttle and you need to exceed some limit defined by a scalar before it is allowed. Eg maybe there is a torque/rpm slip before it will allow locking.

Have a read through all the scalars and see if anything stands out.

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Tried ZF01001 Valve function for TCC pressure again. A little perplexed as why changing this won't work. When I lower the numbers in that table I'm expecting to see a higher mA current on the scanner for eds6 during the slip phase, but so far I'm drawing blanks. Have tried adapt reset selected and deselected. Tried long term learning 1 and 0. Thinking I might need to reset the KAM to get it to take but not sure how to do that... Anyone? 

In other news, whilst I've been looking for a pressure type map for the TCC like I see in GM applications, I found a patent DE19744697A1 that may explain how the TCC pressure is applied in the ZF. Based on the patent I'm looking for a timer and a pressure gradient or change amount. I have a few scalars lined up to test this weekend. Will post back results (if any). Put simply the flow chart is a current ramp where the current is ramped up for each time time slice until the slip of the converter is at a pre-determined amount. If many cycles of the flow chart are ran and the slip remains greater than the set point then the TCC is considered faulty.

image.png.1c0f0a1a25b16462eb83bfa114fb1eaf.pngimage.png.76df549e1a3694865917eea119fa2840.png

Edited by hjtrbo
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Found some tables that would help with a triple disc. There is still a few out there that would also be needed, but a starting point if you're drawing blanks. Still chasing my illusive apply pressure gain...

Take outs from today

ZF02504 - Minimum release of TCC. Adjusted it so I'm locked all the way down to idle in 2nd gear and remains locked when taking off again.

ZF01098 - Increases the rate of the initial apply pressure ramp

ZF00846 & ZF02627 - Prefilling. Setting high causes instant lock, then backs off to adapt routine. Use with caution and sneak up on the values.

ZF00868 -> ZF00873 - Didn't test yet but look to be the constant slip rates for each gear. Setting this table a bit tighter might help with my TCC tip in complaint...

ZF TCC Testing.docx

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  • 3 weeks later...

Finally worked out what the lockup columns mean.

Couple of assumptions. Steady state driving, and unlock values are lower than the values in the lock area.

Case 1, unlocked, accelerating

If already unlocked, the M lock column is the actual OSS speed that the converter will start to apply. Under light load it will reduce slip to 0 not long after. Under heavy load it will modulate pressure to have the TCC gradually locked up by the time the OSS gets to the value in the H column. Quite smart to look ahead like it does.

Case 2, locked in 2nd, accelerating, shift to 3rd

The value in the L column interacts with the previous gear. For example if the 2-3 shift is carried out at 1000 OSS and we are in second gear locked up and the value in the 3L column is 1200, the TCC will unlock after the shift to 3rd then re-lock when the 3M OSS value is hit. If the 3L column is 800 the TCC will remain locked throughout the shift.

Leaning towards the conclusion that we need to have the L column matching or lower than the respective shift OSS. A bit tricky with all the shift tables. But something to keep in mind if modifying shift points, the L column in the TCC schedule may need to be adjusted as well. If this is set wrong it can cause the impression of a shift flare. The improper TCC settings will show on the log as; TCC locked, shift & partial or full unlock, immediately lock. 

I'm thinking out the loud, the trick with the TCC settings is getting the converter to flash up to help build boost, then when the boost is coming up, get the TCC to start its lock progression ultimately ending with it fully locked before peak torque to help make it live a little longer. This will take a combination of the lock and unlock settings to not upset the cruising areas of the TCC table so it can remain locked up for economy.

Edited by hjtrbo
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  • 6 months later...

When logging the TCC, I found when it is locked that there is three different state numbers it gives, 0 is unlocked, then when applied it is either state  1 or 2, I have noticed this convertor flare on tip in when in state 2 but the flare occurred and it changed to state 1 and the convertor caught up.

ZF TCC flare 1.jpg

ZF TCC flare 2.jpg

Edited by Mick
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Yep, that's the flare I'm trying to get rid of. Haven't been able to solve it as yet. On the GMs you can set a minimum apply pressure and also adjust the pressure apply ramp which is a 3d table with slip and load as the axis. This is enough to stop the flare ups and run the minimum pressure needed to minimise parasitic drag. 

Worked around it a different way by locking up the converter as soon as it goes into the next gear. Not ideal as i lose the flash up when at low revs. Havent played with it for a while.

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There is also the convertor surge when cold, I have seen people post that it is intended that way to help warm up the trans oil, but it can be seen that the convertor is not being switched on and off, it appears that there is a little bit of TCC slip which disappears with trans temp, so maybe there is a temperature offset table that I have not seen yet

ZF TCC surge cold.jpg

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4 minutes ago, hjtrbo said:

Yep, that's the flare I'm trying to get rid of. Haven't been able to solve it as yet. On the GMs you can set a minimum apply pressure and also adjust the pressure apply ramp which is a 3d table with slip and load as the axis. This is enough to stop the flare ups and run the minimum pressure needed to minimise parasitic drag. 

Worked around it a different way by locking up the converter as soon as it goes into the next gear. Not ideal as i lose the flash up when at low revs. Havent played with it for a while.

the pressure has to be coming from somewhere in the tune, I have not found it yet either

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I've had a similar flare issue when shifting from 3-4 at light throttle around 2000rpm.

It would only do it on the first shift from 3-4, didn't matter if it was hot or cold. 

I found from this guide that changing all the unlock variable in the 0-20% range to 0 in third helped the issue.

https://fordforums.com.au/showpost.php?p=5195223&postcount=16

 

TCC table.xls

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  • 2 months later...
On 3/17/2022 at 8:23 PM, Superb said:

I've had a similar flare issue when shifting from 3-4 at light throttle around 2000rpm.

It would only do it on the first shift from 3-4, didn't matter if it was hot or cold. 

I found from this guide that changing all the unlock variable in the 0-20% range to 0 in third helped the issue.

https://fordforums.com.au/showpost.php?p=5195223&postcount=16

 

TCC table.xls 25 kB · 7 downloads

I'm having this exact issue and have been trying to fix it for some time, Are you talking about the circled values?

Screenshot 2022-05-25 201750.png

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@G6ETURBO This is a tricky situation and I guess not a universal solution to every car. I believe that is the right area but your values in your table suggest full unlock.

If you're running a stock converter you need to go back to original stock values.

After testing the above fix in my vehicle after sometime I noticed it was still there.

I believe my lockup on the converter is doing something weird and most likely attributed to warming up the trans fluid.

I have actually changed some values in Shift/Converter Schedule 4 and so far so good.

Goodluck

 

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There are posts on bimmer forum that suggest the other converter maps are cold / hot maps. Seems like what you have changed agrees with those reports. Looking at the numbers map 4 seems to be the go for the warm up. Map 3 with its low numbers suggests a hot fluid map. Map 5 is not far off map 1.

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On 3/17/2022 at 1:47 PM, Mick said:

When logging the TCC, I found when it is locked that there is three different state numbers it gives, 0 is unlocked, then when applied it is either state  1 or 2, I have noticed this convertor flare on tip in when in state 2 but the flare occurred and it changed to state 1 and the convertor caught up.

ZF TCC flare 1.jpg

ZF TCC flare 2.jpg

@Mick What parameter are you logging for tcm slip, as the ones I’m logging are just always zero.

thanks!

 

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I will need to look when my laptop is on, but I think there were a couple of different slip ones, so I tried logging all of them and then looked to see which was working

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