hjtrbo Posted August 4, 2021 Share Posted August 4, 2021 Hi all, In the GM world I can set a minimum allowable TCC pressure and also modify the boost ramp based on load. Searching through the many thousands of parameters now to see what might look promising but just wondering on the off chance someone might have been down this road before and would care to share the table(s) name(s). FG Mk1 XR6T What I am trying to do is on tip in have the converter already sufficiently locked that it does not break free momentarily until the boost ramp catches it. Please see screen shot where you can see the converter momentarily slip. Normally I wouldn't worry about this, but it just happens to coincide with a shitty drone spot in my crap Chinese exhaust so it does my head in. Ta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hjtrbo Posted August 5, 2021 Author Share Posted August 5, 2021 Tried all sorts of shit today. Everything is the same. Only thing left that I can think of is to lie to the transmission about how much torque the engine is making but I'm a bit reserved on doing that as I'm thinking that'll muck up heaps of stuff that will need to be recalibrated. These were the tables I hit today. Put everything from conservative numbers to wild numbers. Every single log was identical. ZF02643 Minimum line pressure requested by TCC2 ZF01033 Correction factor of converter amplification ZF02004 Converter amplification ZF01001 Valve function for TCC pressure ZF00526 TCC input torque offset 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland@pcmtec Posted August 5, 2021 Share Posted August 5, 2021 Change your tcc lockup schedule Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hjtrbo Posted August 5, 2021 Author Share Posted August 5, 2021 Even the last column in each gear? Thought we left that alone to avoid high load lock up. Currently doing this. It's the roll into the throttle that I'm having trouble with. Need more offset pressure like a can do with GM. Another example from today. If you look at the marker, I'm already locked but it breaks loose on throttle tip in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland@pcmtec Posted August 7, 2021 Share Posted August 7, 2021 Im spit balling but believe it's how locked the converter is. Eg l/m/h is like 33/66/100% locked. I don't have an auto to test but that is my theory. As long as you don't lock the converter under full torque it should be reasonably safe. Testing is key however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hjtrbo Posted August 7, 2021 Author Share Posted August 7, 2021 Cheers, I'll throw in some 0's to the high load and test later today. Will report back with findings to help others out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland@pcmtec Posted August 8, 2021 Share Posted August 8, 2021 I think that might be all you need. There appears to be a TCC input torque offset table. I'm not sure what this would do however. ZF00526 There is also a lot of interesting scalars here It might be for NVH reasons they simply do not lock the converter at decel/light throttle and you need to exceed some limit defined by a scalar before it is allowed. Eg maybe there is a torque/rpm slip before it will allow locking. Have a read through all the scalars and see if anything stands out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hjtrbo Posted August 11, 2021 Author Share Posted August 11, 2021 (edited) Tried ZF01001 Valve function for TCC pressure again. A little perplexed as why changing this won't work. When I lower the numbers in that table I'm expecting to see a higher mA current on the scanner for eds6 during the slip phase, but so far I'm drawing blanks. Have tried adapt reset selected and deselected. Tried long term learning 1 and 0. Thinking I might need to reset the KAM to get it to take but not sure how to do that... Anyone? In other news, whilst I've been looking for a pressure type map for the TCC like I see in GM applications, I found a patent DE19744697A1 that may explain how the TCC pressure is applied in the ZF. Based on the patent I'm looking for a timer and a pressure gradient or change amount. I have a few scalars lined up to test this weekend. Will post back results (if any). Put simply the flow chart is a current ramp where the current is ramped up for each time time slice until the slip of the converter is at a pre-determined amount. If many cycles of the flow chart are ran and the slip remains greater than the set point then the TCC is considered faulty. Edited August 11, 2021 by hjtrbo Extra info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hjtrbo Posted August 12, 2021 Author Share Posted August 12, 2021 Found some tables that would help with a triple disc. There is still a few out there that would also be needed, but a starting point if you're drawing blanks. Still chasing my illusive apply pressure gain... Take outs from today ZF02504 - Minimum release of TCC. Adjusted it so I'm locked all the way down to idle in 2nd gear and remains locked when taking off again. ZF01098 - Increases the rate of the initial apply pressure ramp ZF00846 & ZF02627 - Prefilling. Setting high causes instant lock, then backs off to adapt routine. Use with caution and sneak up on the values. ZF00868 -> ZF00873 - Didn't test yet but look to be the constant slip rates for each gear. Setting this table a bit tighter might help with my TCC tip in complaint... ZF TCC Testing.docx 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hjtrbo Posted August 30, 2021 Author Share Posted August 30, 2021 (edited) Finally worked out what the lockup columns mean. Couple of assumptions. Steady state driving, and unlock values are lower than the values in the lock area. Case 1, unlocked, accelerating If already unlocked, the M lock column is the actual OSS speed that the converter will start to apply. Under light load it will reduce slip to 0 not long after. Under heavy load it will modulate pressure to have the TCC gradually locked up by the time the OSS gets to the value in the H column. Quite smart to look ahead like it does. Case 2, locked in 2nd, accelerating, shift to 3rd The value in the L column interacts with the previous gear. For example if the 2-3 shift is carried out at 1000 OSS and we are in second gear locked up and the value in the 3L column is 1200, the TCC will unlock after the shift to 3rd then re-lock when the 3M OSS value is hit. If the 3L column is 800 the TCC will remain locked throughout the shift. Leaning towards the conclusion that we need to have the L column matching or lower than the respective shift OSS. A bit tricky with all the shift tables. But something to keep in mind if modifying shift points, the L column in the TCC schedule may need to be adjusted as well. If this is set wrong it can cause the impression of a shift flare. The improper TCC settings will show on the log as; TCC locked, shift & partial or full unlock, immediately lock. I'm thinking out the loud, the trick with the TCC settings is getting the converter to flash up to help build boost, then when the boost is coming up, get the TCC to start its lock progression ultimately ending with it fully locked before peak torque to help make it live a little longer. This will take a combination of the lock and unlock settings to not upset the cruising areas of the TCC table so it can remain locked up for economy. Edited August 30, 2021 by hjtrbo 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 hjtrbo thank you for your indepth analysis of your findings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 (edited) When logging the TCC, I found when it is locked that there is three different state numbers it gives, 0 is unlocked, then when applied it is either state 1 or 2, I have noticed this convertor flare on tip in when in state 2 but the flare occurred and it changed to state 1 and the convertor caught up. Edited March 17, 2022 by Mick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hjtrbo Posted March 17, 2022 Author Share Posted March 17, 2022 Yep, that's the flare I'm trying to get rid of. Haven't been able to solve it as yet. On the GMs you can set a minimum apply pressure and also adjust the pressure apply ramp which is a 3d table with slip and load as the axis. This is enough to stop the flare ups and run the minimum pressure needed to minimise parasitic drag. Worked around it a different way by locking up the converter as soon as it goes into the next gear. Not ideal as i lose the flash up when at low revs. Havent played with it for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 There is also the convertor surge when cold, I have seen people post that it is intended that way to help warm up the trans oil, but it can be seen that the convertor is not being switched on and off, it appears that there is a little bit of TCC slip which disappears with trans temp, so maybe there is a temperature offset table that I have not seen yet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 4 minutes ago, hjtrbo said: Yep, that's the flare I'm trying to get rid of. Haven't been able to solve it as yet. On the GMs you can set a minimum apply pressure and also adjust the pressure apply ramp which is a 3d table with slip and load as the axis. This is enough to stop the flare ups and run the minimum pressure needed to minimise parasitic drag. Worked around it a different way by locking up the converter as soon as it goes into the next gear. Not ideal as i lose the flash up when at low revs. Havent played with it for a while. the pressure has to be coming from somewhere in the tune, I have not found it yet either 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superb Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 I've had a similar flare issue when shifting from 3-4 at light throttle around 2000rpm. It would only do it on the first shift from 3-4, didn't matter if it was hot or cold. I found from this guide that changing all the unlock variable in the 0-20% range to 0 in third helped the issue. https://fordforums.com.au/showpost.php?p=5195223&postcount=16 TCC table.xls 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G6ETURBO Posted May 25, 2022 Share Posted May 25, 2022 On 3/17/2022 at 8:23 PM, Superb said: I've had a similar flare issue when shifting from 3-4 at light throttle around 2000rpm. It would only do it on the first shift from 3-4, didn't matter if it was hot or cold. I found from this guide that changing all the unlock variable in the 0-20% range to 0 in third helped the issue. https://fordforums.com.au/showpost.php?p=5195223&postcount=16 TCC table.xls 25 kB · 7 downloads I'm having this exact issue and have been trying to fix it for some time, Are you talking about the circled values? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superb Posted May 25, 2022 Share Posted May 25, 2022 @G6ETURBO This is a tricky situation and I guess not a universal solution to every car. I believe that is the right area but your values in your table suggest full unlock. If you're running a stock converter you need to go back to original stock values. After testing the above fix in my vehicle after sometime I noticed it was still there. I believe my lockup on the converter is doing something weird and most likely attributed to warming up the trans fluid. I have actually changed some values in Shift/Converter Schedule 4 and so far so good. Goodluck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G6ETURBO Posted May 25, 2022 Share Posted May 25, 2022 @Superb Converter isn’t stock and that’s the file the guy who built the box loaded in, would you care to share some changes that have worked for you as I’ve come up empty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hjtrbo Posted May 26, 2022 Author Share Posted May 26, 2022 There are posts on bimmer forum that suggest the other converter maps are cold / hot maps. Seems like what you have changed agrees with those reports. Looking at the numbers map 4 seems to be the go for the warm up. Map 3 with its low numbers suggests a hot fluid map. Map 5 is not far off map 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G6ETURBO Posted May 29, 2022 Share Posted May 29, 2022 On 3/17/2022 at 1:47 PM, Mick said: When logging the TCC, I found when it is locked that there is three different state numbers it gives, 0 is unlocked, then when applied it is either state 1 or 2, I have noticed this convertor flare on tip in when in state 2 but the flare occurred and it changed to state 1 and the convertor caught up. @Mick What parameter are you logging for tcm slip, as the ones I’m logging are just always zero. thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted May 29, 2022 Share Posted May 29, 2022 I will need to look when my laptop is on, but I think there were a couple of different slip ones, so I tried logging all of them and then looked to see which was working Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overlap Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 On 8/4/2021 at 7:52 PM, hjtrbo said: Hi all, In the GM world I can set a minimum allowable TCC pressure and also modify the boost ramp based on load. Searching through the many thousands of parameters now to see what might look promising but just wondering on the off chance someone might have been down this road before and would care to share the table(s) name(s). FG Mk1 XR6T What I am trying to do is on tip in have the converter already sufficiently locked that it does not break free momentarily until the boost ramp catches it. Please see screen shot where you can see the converter momentarily slip. Normally I wouldn't worry about this, but it just happens to coincide with a shitty drone spot in my crap Chinese exhaust so it does my head in. Ta Did you manage to sort this? Id like to increase tcc apply pressure also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hjtrbo Posted July 18, 2023 Author Share Posted July 18, 2023 Not perfectly. It's been a while since I last went down this rabbit hole. Aggressive OSS lockup settings in the converter maps go a long way. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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